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  #1  
Old April 17th, 2006, 07:35 AM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Politeness Police

The city of New York has just issued a set of "Politeness Laws" that promise to enforce major fines for commiting such crimes as:

- bringing children under 10 years old to the movies after 10pm
- bringing a cell phone into a broadway or movie theater
- letting you car alarm run for more than 3 minutes
- allowing graffiti to remain on any property that you own (!)
- putting your feet up on a seating place in the subway
- others than I can't remember

I find this interesting and wonder: are we more willing to be rude in large social groups, where we are unlikely to encounter any given individual more than once? Is being polite vs. rude a one-off prisoner's dilemma?

Is politeness really politeness when it's inspired by fear of punishment?

Last edited by Carey N; May 14th, 2006 at 12:31 PM..
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  #2  
Old April 17th, 2006, 10:11 AM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Quote:
Carey: What will it mean if politeness increases as a result of these laws? Is politeness really politeness when it's inspired by fear of punishment?
Unfortunately Carey, moral illiteracy seems to be rampant these days, as evidenced by the inability of some participants on this very forum to make the distinction between social instincts and morality. Hence the necessity of fines to impose morality.

Of course a morality imposed by fines is dreadfully inefficient and doomed to ultimately fail. Fortunately, technology will save us—electric conditioning collars will soon be used to condition those at the lower end of the morality bell curve—then they too will begin to comprehend “moral responsibility.” Oh happy day.
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  #3  
Old April 17th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Fred, Why is it so hard for you to imagine that someone would want to be seen as a moral person by others in their society - and that that could be a strong motivator for their behavior?

Even criminals in prison observe a strong "moral" code of not ratting out another prisoner, even sworn enemies. Do you think those convicted murderers and rapists have a strong sense of free-will morality - or do you think they are more worried about having the respect of other prisoners?

Margaret
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  #4  
Old April 17th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Quote:
Even criminals in prison observe a strong "moral" code of not ratting out another prisoner, even sworn enemies. Do you think those convicted murderers and rapists have a strong sense of free-will morality - or do you think they are more worried about having the respect of other prisoners?
This is not strictly true . . . one of my father's relatives is the warden of Sing-Sing Prison, and hes has related that inmates kill and rape each other with some regularity.

They do form alliances, within which loyalty can be very strong (just like people do on the outside). This is the key to morality - it's all relative: within a social group, the rules work in one way (don't tattle or kill or rape), and between social groups, they work in a completley different way (kill everything that moves). The dynamics within a prison are just a microcosm of what happens on the outside, but usually with escalated violence.
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  #5  
Old April 17th, 2006, 01:46 PM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Good point, Carey. However, I would maintain that when a convict kills, rapes - or refuses to rat out another prisoner - in all those cases he is highly motivated by maintaining the respect of other prisoners.

My point was that being concerned about what others (in your society) think of you is the cause of what we call moral behavior. In otherwords, one's culture greatly determines what behavior is considered moral - not some absolute moral code that we are born with and that we have the free-will to ignore or follow. I think your example reinforces that point.

When you say
Quote:
This is the key to morality - it's all relative: within a social group, the rules work in one way (don't tattle or kill or rape), and between social groups, they work in a completley different way (kill everything that moves).
. . you explicity restate that same point - without mentioning the cause for that behavior.

Margaret
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  #6  
Old April 17th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Quote:
Fred, Why is it so hard for you to imagine that someone would want to be seen as a moral person by others in their society - and that that could be a strong motivator for their behavior?
The will to be seen as an upstanding citizen is clearly not enough to support a general aura of politeness . . .. my guess is that as social groups become larger and larger, and repeat encounters between any two given individuals become rare, politeness takes a nosedive.

Imagine a local movie theatre which only your community attends: you see these people all the time. If you bring a cell phone in there and bother everyone, you'll have to take crap from them for the rest of the month.

Now think of a multi-plex to which a couple thousand people from all over a county flock every weekend. You don't know anyone in there and don't have to worry about hearing back from them should you commit some kind of trespass. Some people remain polite anyway, but it only takes one couple stupid and inconsiderate enough to bring crying baby to ruin it for everyone. Enter (so NYC says) the politeness police. Not that it will really work.
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  #7  
Old April 17th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Quote:
you explicity restate that same point - without mentioning the cause for that behavior
The differentiation between "within-group" and "everyone else" is an instinctive component of human behavior, though it's heavily built upon by cultural evolution as well. I am inclined to agree with D S Wilson's argument that this feature of human behavior is actually a group-level adaptation. Social collectives in which members make a strong distinction regarding within vs. between group rules tend to replace social collectives that do not.
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  #8  
Old April 17th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Carey, I draw your attention to the words in their society in my statement. And again, I think your example makes my point.

My premise is that social instinct and morality is being concerned with what others in your society think of you. If that is true you would expect people to be less concerned around those who they see as less a part of their society.

Margaret
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  #9  
Old April 17th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Carey, I generally agree with all of that.

OTOH the concept of in-group and out-group is a much more complex idea than shirts vs. skins or red state - blue state.

People typically belong to several social collectives. One person could be a member of the Rotary Club, the Presbyterian Church, and the Republican party - and gay. The behaviors seen as moral in each of those seemingly compatible groups are not necessarily the same.

When you say
Quote:
Social collectives in which members make a strong distinction regarding within vs. between group rules tend to replace social collectives that do not.
. . . do you you think those other groups will generally come to see homosexuality as moral - or will gays and other members of those groups who don't see homosexuality as immoral eventually leave?

Margaret
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  #10  
Old April 17th, 2006, 02:46 PM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Re: Politeness Police

Quote:
. . . do you you think those other groups will generally come to see homosexuality as moral - or will gays and other members of those groups who don't see homosexuality as immoral eventually leave?
My reference to the group selection idea is more pertinent to our ancestral environment, when social collectives were much smaller and had far more distinct boundaries (both cultural and geographical) than modern ones.
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