The gathering place for Mental Health and
Applied Behavior Science Professionals. Become a charter member of Behavior OnLine. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
But even Tom, the guy who asserts that we humans are not morally responsible for our behavior, seems to at least have some appreciation for the mystery here regarding the beginning low entropy (which, like it or not, has to be taken into account when attempting to understand and explain life and it’s evolution b/c without that low entropy, there’d be no life, no evolution, no “natural selectionâ€). Although, admittedly, I do find Tom’s rambling regarding the “fluctuationsâ€â€”that he declares “we’ve been living off,†claiming that those fluctuations “caused energy to clump due to gravity; those clumps cooled to stars; those stars pressed the energy into the different elements; those elements were spread by novae; those elements made your DNAâ€â€”to be somewhat incoherent, not to mention superficial. But then I suppose Tom does often tend to be somewhat incoherent and superficial. Carey, it may seem that we’ve reached yet another dead-end, but I remain hopeful that eventually you’ll realize that you don’t know nearly as much as you think you know. And always remember Fred’s theorem—Randomness is an illusion, but ignorance, unfortunately, is rampant. All the best, Hugs and kisses, Fred |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution, anything gained, JimB?
From JimB’s opening post on “Selling Evolutionâ€:
Quote:
Nevertheless Jim, I think that you started a good thread here. At times it seemed that Carey might actually have started thinking for himself, but, alas, the pull of the current dogma, and the admittedly compelling circularity of it all, apparently is still too strong in his life. Plus, let’s face it, getting whatever scholastic credentials Carey’s seeking probably pretty much requires him to buy into the current doctrine, so God bless the lad. But did you, Jim, get anything out of the thread? |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Alright - my patience with you has finally, at long last, run out. Good luck with your future exploits, Fred.
|
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
Last edited by TomJrzk; August 5th, 2006 at 02:37 PM.. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
So there are various things that we’ve more or less managed agree on, while our primary disagreement seems to boil down to the to ultimate circularity in the notion of Darwinian top-down “natural selection†and that such a notion ultimately doesn’t really explain or predict all that much—I think that that is a very significant factor in evaluating the validity/usefulness of “natural selection†as being a legitimate force/theory/whatever; whereas you, as you’ve stated, indicate that the “apparent circularity just isn't important at all.†(And I’d bet my left testicle that, assuming you live a full life, you’ll eventually agree with me that Darwinian top-down natural selection, as it is currently “explainedâ€/“understood,†is indeed merely a circular notion that ultimately doesn’t really explain or predict all that much.) Nevertheless, be that as it may, our discussion/debate, I think, was actually reasonably honest and rigorous and I think we both were reasonably consistent in how we see and explained things; certainly more so than in how Tom and MM tend to behave in their various ramblings, and certainly we weren’t so unnecessarily longwinded as Alex tends to be in some of her posts. And finally, where one stands on these issues seems to depend on how one sees the big picture. Some of us sees things as Roger Penrose—the eminently qualified Oxford mathematician and physicist, who recently also wrote The Road to Reality, A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe, 2005, “the most complete mathematical explanation of the universe yet publishedâ€â€”sees things: "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." While the rest see things primarily as being random and/or “effectively randomâ€; or perhaps blindly, mindlessly, algorithmically deterministic (essentially effectively random), as Tom claims to see things. Everyone here should consider buying Penrose’s book—it is undoubtedly the best book on physics and a mathematical explanation of the universe ever written. |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
You and he DO NOT agree. You're view of non-random is "Oh, then there MUST be some imaginary friend who imparts some intelligence" while his is like my "there are no external guiding forces (even us) so everything is non-random; it's all deterministic". Yes, I know that you intentionally didn't let that sink in. |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
Oh, that’s right—that Tom would have a beef is/was itself deterministic. Period. The end. |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
We all have decision machines in our brains that affect the future. Those decisions that we make are deterministic but we still have to make them. If we don't, a different result would occur. To illustrate: I could have decided not to correct your misinterpretation of Carey's point; others reading this thread could more likely, then, decide that you and he actually agreed and follow your ridiculous philosophy to its incorrect end. The decision engine in my brain wanted a better future so I took the time to send the post. My brain was compelled by its nature and condition to make exactly this decision. You are you and I am me. What we are is determined by our genes and environment but what we do is not meaningless in a deterministic universe, it IS the deterministic universe. People that understand that point will not fall into hopelessness, as you seem to think you would. Only we can create a better deterministic future, and it sure would help if people didn't think some supernatural imaginary friend will bail them out after the last human dies. I feel much more in control of a deterministic universe than I ever did in a universe at the mercy of the whims of something I can't see or touch or even be sure exists. |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Selling Evolution
Quote:
Perhaps someone else here would care enough to call Tom on his nonsense? |
|
|