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Politeness Police
The city of New York has just issued a set of "Politeness Laws" that promise to enforce major fines for commiting such crimes as:
- bringing children under 10 years old to the movies after 10pm - bringing a cell phone into a broadway or movie theater - letting you car alarm run for more than 3 minutes - allowing graffiti to remain on any property that you own (!) - putting your feet up on a seating place in the subway - others than I can't remember I find this interesting and wonder: are we more willing to be rude in large social groups, where we are unlikely to encounter any given individual more than once? Is being polite vs. rude a one-off prisoner's dilemma? Is politeness really politeness when it's inspired by fear of punishment? Last edited by Carey N; May 14th, 2006 at 12:31 PM.. |
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Re: Politeness Police
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Of course a morality imposed by fines is dreadfully inefficient and doomed to ultimately fail. Fortunately, technology will save us—electric conditioning collars will soon be used to condition those at the lower end of the morality bell curve—then they too will begin to comprehend “moral responsibility.†Oh happy day. |
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Re: Politeness Police
Fred, Why is it so hard for you to imagine that someone would want to be seen as a moral person by others in their society - and that that could be a strong motivator for their behavior?
Even criminals in prison observe a strong "moral" code of not ratting out another prisoner, even sworn enemies. Do you think those convicted murderers and rapists have a strong sense of free-will morality - or do you think they are more worried about having the respect of other prisoners? Margaret |
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Re: Politeness Police
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They do form alliances, within which loyalty can be very strong (just like people do on the outside). This is the key to morality - it's all relative: within a social group, the rules work in one way (don't tattle or kill or rape), and between social groups, they work in a completley different way (kill everything that moves). The dynamics within a prison are just a microcosm of what happens on the outside, but usually with escalated violence. |
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Re: Politeness Police
Good point, Carey. However, I would maintain that when a convict kills, rapes - or refuses to rat out another prisoner - in all those cases he is highly motivated by maintaining the respect of other prisoners.
My point was that being concerned about what others (in your society) think of you is the cause of what we call moral behavior. In otherwords, one's culture greatly determines what behavior is considered moral - not some absolute moral code that we are born with and that we have the free-will to ignore or follow. I think your example reinforces that point. When you say Quote:
Margaret |
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Re: Politeness Police
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Imagine a local movie theatre which only your community attends: you see these people all the time. If you bring a cell phone in there and bother everyone, you'll have to take crap from them for the rest of the month. Now think of a multi-plex to which a couple thousand people from all over a county flock every weekend. You don't know anyone in there and don't have to worry about hearing back from them should you commit some kind of trespass. Some people remain polite anyway, but it only takes one couple stupid and inconsiderate enough to bring crying baby to ruin it for everyone. Enter (so NYC says) the politeness police. Not that it will really work. |
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Re: Politeness Police
Carey, I draw your attention to the words in their society in my statement. And again, I think your example makes my point.
My premise is that social instinct and morality is being concerned with what others in your society think of you. If that is true you would expect people to be less concerned around those who they see as less a part of their society. Margaret |
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Re: Politeness Police
Carey, I generally agree with all of that.
OTOH the concept of in-group and out-group is a much more complex idea than shirts vs. skins or red state - blue state. People typically belong to several social collectives. One person could be a member of the Rotary Club, the Presbyterian Church, and the Republican party - and gay. The behaviors seen as moral in each of those seemingly compatible groups are not necessarily the same. When you say Quote:
Margaret |
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