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  #21  
Unread June 11th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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[MM (June 4)]: For a vivid example [of your “Somatic Behavior Choice hypothesis”], it seems that some American GI's in Iraq don't have too much problem with killing Iraqi civilians - because they hold the very strong identity belief that they are there to seek revenge for Iraq's role in 9/11.
Well MM, that is clearly what you yourself believe—that the only reason our military is there is, as you allege, for “killing Iraqi civilians,” and to “seek revenge for Iraq’s role in 9/11”—and you somehow have managed to project that belief unto American soldiers.

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MM: An article in today’s Guardian bears this out: Article The first paragraph: Quote: “American veterans of the war in Iraq have described a culture of casual violence, revenge and prejudice against Iraqi civilians that has made the killing of innocent bystanders a common occurrence.”
Your article begins with this allegation: In the wake of the Haditha massacre come further allegations of outlaw killings in Iraq.” It then claims that, “‘Some’ American veterans have expressed little surprise at the latest [alleged] ‘revelations.’” Also as noted in your article, the primary source being quoted is “Camilo Mejia, a US infantry veteran who served briefly in the Haditha area in 2003,” and “who has served time in jail for refusing to return to Iraq for a second tour of duty.”

Your article is speculation by authors that are obviously biased against American soldiers/involvement in Iraq—the article lacks any substantial objectivity/credibility, and yet you cite it as a "vivid example" of your so-called “Somatic Behavior Choice hypothesis.”

However, ironically, in one sense perhaps your “example” is a "vivid example," but only of your own “emotions” and “personal belief system” (and your disregard for objectivity and/or truth) hijacking any “reason” that you may possess.

Regarding the so-called “Haditha massacre,” I’ll not be surprised if it is ultimately determined that it's something similar to the now infamous Dan Rather forged memo-gate—but I feel bad for our guys putting their lives on the line and then having to put-up with the histrionics and allegation coming from various Left leaning Americans, and various Iraqis, all of whom obviously have other agendas, and little respect for truth/reality. (Plus the fact that our current military, having to deal with an immensely difficult and dangerous situation, and having to deal with an enemy that is unimaginably brutal, is probably one of the most responsible/restrained/professional in human history.)
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  #22  
Unread June 11th, 2006, 12:16 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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Originally Posted by Fred H.
Well MM, that is clearly what you yourself believe—that the only reason our military is there is, as you allege, for “killing Iraqi civilians,” and to “seek revenge for Iraq’s role in 9/11”—and you somehow have managed to project that belief unto American soldiers.
Yikes, it looks like I'll have to agree with Fred on this one.

It's much better to use apparently simple examples like the lion mauling than such complex examples like war to make points (unless they're intentionally political). There were several reasons for starting the war, all of which should allow our soldiers to be extremely proud of what they accomplished. The 9/11 tie-in was just the one that would take advantage of the current emotions to sway fence-sitters. And Saddam DID send $40K to the families of suicide bombers so it wasn't completely without basis (even IF he didn't also support the actual 9/11 guys).
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  #23  
Unread June 14th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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[TomJ, Originally Posted by Fred H.] Well MM, that is clearly what you yourself believe—that the only reason our military is there is, as you allege, for “killing Iraqi civilians,” and to “seek revenge for Iraq’s role in 9/11”—and you somehow have managed to project that belief unto American soldiers.

[TomJ to Fred] Yikes, it looks like I'll have to agree with Fred on this one.
Hmmm, well, since Margaret seems to be MIA, perhaps your concurrence, Tom, has effected what you’ve accused me of having caused, all by myself, in times past (as noted in your 2/16/06 post below, to MM no less, at http://www.behavior.net/bolforums/sh...64&postcount=9):
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[TomJ to MM on 2/16/06] However, before he frustrates you out of this forum as he did so many others….
However Tom, you also more or less accused me of having frustrated Carey—Margaret’s “fawning undergrad psych student”—among others, out of the forum, and he’s still around. But still, your concurrence with me—resulting from your, using MM’s words, “strong identity-based emotions?”—was probably hard on someone of MM’s ideology, so perhaps now you, Tom, have permanently frustrated MM, our Somatic Behavior Choice guru, out of this forum. Congratulations.
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  #24  
Unread June 14th, 2006, 02:31 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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Originally Posted by Fred H.
Hmmm, well, since Margaret seems to be MIA, perhaps your concurrence, Tom, has effected what you’ve accused me of having caused, all by myself, in times past
While I seriously doubt you actually believe this, I'm sure anyone who's read the past posts understand how far from reality your world is. Carey IS back, and he's handling you so well now that I didn't have to comment on your last battle.

Besides, my post did not insult MM's honesty, objectivity or even her ability to reason. That's another difference between you and me, Fred. Maybe you could learn something.

Excellent use of the word 'effected', though .
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  #25  
Unread June 14th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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TomJ: Carey IS back, and he's handling you so well now that I didn't have to comment on your last battle.
Yep, Carey is back, and JimB agrees, more or less, with me regarding the circularity of natural selection—so that makes you more or less mistaken on all counts. Did you have to lookup my use of “effected?”
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  #26  
Unread June 15th, 2006, 08:12 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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Originally Posted by Fred H.
Yep, Carey is back, and JimB agrees, more or less, with me regarding the circularity of natural selection—so that makes you more or less mistaken on all counts. Did you have to lookup my use of “effected?”
Maybe you ought to try writing something without ading the phrase 'more or less', which invalidates whatever statement you're making. I'd have to choose Door #2: I'm 'less' mistaken on all counts. Obviously.

No, I didn't have to look up the word 'effected'. I always liked how 'effect' is a noun except for this case, which is why so many people confuse affect/effect.

It's just like you to return a compliment with a back-handed insult, that's what everybody has been trying to tell you these many years. Another to add to my long list. Thanks!
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  #27  
Unread June 15th, 2006, 12:26 PM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

Just in case anyone here is actually interested, it occurred to me a couple of weeks ago that I was spending far too much time carefully composing posts for a forum where I was just about the only one doing that.

It became obvious that my motives here were different from almost every other member - which I noted in my last post. I'll check back every few days to see if anything changes for the better - but it's silly for me to spend so many hours contributing to a forum where once a month someone else might write a few intelligent sentences that might actually have something to do with evolutionary psychology.

Don't worry about insults getting to me. Their emotional basis serves more to prove my thesis than detract from my focus.
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  #28  
Unread June 15th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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TomJ: No, I didn't have to look up the word 'effected'….

It's just like you to return a compliment with a back-handed insult, that's what everybody has been trying to tell you these many years.
I usually have to look it up, so don’t go all sulky on me.

BTW, seems that your “insult” didn’t get to MM after all b/c, she claims, its “emotional basis serves more to prove [her] thesis than detract from [her] focus”; and besides, she declares, her “motives here were different from almost every other member.” Wow, maybe it’s her insults you should be whining about?
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  #29  
Unread June 16th, 2006, 10:22 PM
Carey N Carey N is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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Originally Posted by Fred
Yep, Carey is back, and JimB agrees, more or less, with me regarding the circularity of natural selection—so that makes you more or less mistaken on all counts.
I was going to write a response in the circularity thread that Jim started, but Todd wrote a post that pretty much encapsulated my thoughts, and more, on the matter . . . you didn't seem to address Todd's post in detail . . .
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  #30  
Unread June 17th, 2006, 12:52 AM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Implications of Somatic Behavior Choice

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Carey: . . . you didn't seem to address Todd's post in detail . . .
Regarding my post on the unavoidable circularity and/or tautological aspects of natural selection, Todd responded with a thumbs up and wrote: “I agree with your general principle here.” Best I can tell, that indicates that Todd, along with JimB, more or less sees things as I do regarding the circularity of natural selection.
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