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  #21  
Unread March 27th, 2006, 02:10 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret McGhee
Objectivity only requires honest motives and no hidden agendas.
My dictionary says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom's Dictionary
Objectivity: judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices
But, my comment was only about the concept of genetic IQ, not each side's use of heretofore undecidable 'conclusions'. Discuss away but I don't have a dog in this fight.

Fred and I ought to take identical IQ tests. Well, maybe identical except his ought to be translated into a language spoken by few people and then translated back into 'english'. Not fair?

Last edited by TomJrzk; March 27th, 2006 at 02:43 PM.
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  #22  
Unread March 27th, 2006, 06:42 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
TomJ: Fred and I ought to take identical IQ tests. Well, maybe by few people and then translated back into 'english'. Not fair?
One’s IQ can give us some sense of one’s potential, but it’s not exactly destiny. While an IQ of 80 is probably going to preclude one from ever becoming a rocket scientist, there are, nevertheless, those with IQs over 140 that waste what they’ve been blessed with, and/or misuse it—it’s that free will thing (and then of course there may be various neurological disorders that can muck thing up).

I’d guess that your/my IQs are within a 5% range—believe it or not, you could be 5% higher on the curve, or maybe lower. But from what I’ve seen in many of your half-assed posts, I’d say I’m using mine more effectively than you’re using yours, so far anyway . . . and you seem to have other issues.

JimB suggested Murray’s Human Accomplishment—do yourself a favor and read it. Expand your mind Tom . . . or take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. Anyway, if things are as deterministic as you suggest (and I think that they more or less are except for some amount of human free will), then there’s really nothing you can do to change them.

BTW Tom, I’m betting that even Pinker’s charm and big beautiful hair will not overcome Margaret’s ideology—that she’ll never accept or acknowledge, in any meaningful way, the reality of general intelligence differences. What do you think? (I fear that she doesn’t even acknowledge me anymore . . . and I’ve tried so hard to help her . . . oh well.)
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  #23  
Unread March 27th, 2006, 08:41 PM
alexandra_k alexandra_k is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

I hope it is appreciated that to write off arguments because of the person rather than taking the arguments at their merit is what is known as an ad homenim attack.

Yeah I followed the link back to the main page too and some of the other arguments are a riot! But that being said... If you have a problem with the arguments you should address the arguments not attack the person (ie those 'raving liberals'

Margaret... If you are still interested in emotions you might want to check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019...lance&n=283155

Prinz engages with the most recent findings from the Cognitive Neuro-Sciences and he tries to extend the James-Lange / Le Doux theory of emotions (as perceptions of body state / perceptions of brain areas active when typically experiencing a body state) line. He also has a place for typical causes, appraisals (ie of danger), and action tendencies. He also engages in a fairly sophisticated analysis of the experimental findings and he considers an interesting analogy between emotions and perceptions. So for instance one can imagine oneself into an emotion one can also imagine a visual perception and both seem to involve the parts of the brain relevant to bottom-up (stimulus driven) visual perception and emotional response.

He talks a bit about the function of emotions too. He thinks emotions are perceptions of body / brain changes and that those states represent relational properties that matter for the organism (ie danger). A very interesting read.

Re intelligence... Nobody seems to have mentioned poverty again... And how poverty (and lack of education) can significantly impact on ones score.

Do people mean to dispute the claims regarding how opression of group seems to have a more significant impact on IQ than ethnic groups?
Do people mean to dispute the claims regarding remedial programs and increase in IQ?
Are people going to argue for those or are they just going to write off the links as words from the 'raving liberals'?
Also would be interesting to consider the role of self-fulfilling prophecy. If people are told they are smart they will do better than if they are told they are stupid. Experiments have found that teachers treat their students very differently depending on whether they are told they are 'smart' or 'stupid'.

Sigh.

Back to the nature / nurture debate again... Things just aren't that simple. If you really are interested I'd suggest Fiona Cowie "What's Within? Nativism Reconsidered" and also Paul Griffiths book on emotions... Title escapes me... Both are empirically informed but even better they engage in sophisticated analysis of the empirical information... Something that seems to be lacking from people who are taught facts without being taught how to think.

Sigh.
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  #24  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
AlexK: I hope it is appreciated that to write off arguments because of the person rather than taking the arguments at their merit is what is known as an ad homenim attack.
Those who deny the massive science and evidence verifying general intelligence and intelligence differences (and the undeniable genetic link) are as disingenuous and/or ignorant as the young-earth creationists who deny the science and evidence verifying that the earth is billions of years old.

The “write-off” of such “arguments” is not so much “ad hominem,” but rather well deserved contempt. Wake up and smell your own narrow-minded ideological bullshit.
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  #25  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 09:41 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
But from what I’ve seen in many of your half-assed posts, I’d say I’m using mine more effectively than you’re using yours, so far anyway . . . and you seem to have other issues.
Interesting.

Regardless, if there were a set of identical twins where one was well-fed, educated and had a complicated environment and the other was none of those, do you think they would score the same on an IQ test? Use that wonderful mind of yours and think about it. I'll be expecting an answer .

There's a difference between stupidity and ignorance. And it's hard to measure the former if there's too much of the latter.

Last edited by TomJrzk; March 28th, 2006 at 09:54 AM.
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  #26  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 11:08 AM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
. . . if there were a set of identical twins
JimB has provided much info and various studies on twins—if you weren’t such a slacker you probably could’ve use some of that info to help support your less than persuasive arguments against human free will. Still, your time will be better spent if you just read Murray’s Human Accomplishment.
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  #27  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 11:32 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
JimB has provided much info and various studies on twins
Regardless of any statistical 'adjustment' for environment; liberals will not accept genetic IQ until there is a test which shows that every set of identical twins have the same IQ. There may be one day but it will probably have to include direct brain scans rather than answers to multiple-choice questions.
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  #28  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 12:41 PM
Margaret McGhee Margaret McGhee is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Tom, Some quick points.

* I am a liberal and I accept a genetic effect on cognitive abilty. I keep saying that but no-one listens.

* That 'statistical adjustment' for environment you refer to is the environmental effect on cognitive abilty.

* Cognitive ability has both genetic and environmental factors. IQ tests (so far) can not separate those for any individual. However, statistical methods and science has examined that question in terms of populations. The best estimates of those attempts so far attribute about a 50/50 contribution by genes and environment - although that could vary in any individual. Even hereditarians agree on this.

* That does not address the question of just what IQ is. I believe that a person's actual cognitive ability (both the innate and environmental components) is a complex variable that could not be expressed as a single number. IQ can be useful as a simple proxy for the complex concept of cognitive ability as long as people remember that - but they won't, of course.

* Even among the hereditarians there are three versions of the inherited IQ theory. The different brain structure model, the different information processing model, and the different intelligences model. The reality (for inherited cognitive ability) could well be some combination of those but all three are themelves plausibly subject to environmental effects during development.

* I accept that IQ predicts some forms of accomplishment. Like Binet I believe that IQ can be a useful tool to help identify children who may need special attention in school.

* Binet warned against and predicted that conservatives would sieze upon IQ as a way to justify unequal treatment of minorities. How right he was.

* If hereditarians agree that cognitive ability is a mix of inherited and environmental factors - and that Ashkinazim Jews can increase their IQ substantially in just a few generations - then why are they not demanding better environmental conditions for groups who test low on the IQ scale in order to eventually raise those scores and eliminate that drain on society for our descendents in future generations - instead of setting up special communities to house them.

Margaret

Last edited by Margaret McGhee; March 28th, 2006 at 12:53 PM.
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  #29  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Quote:
MM: I am a liberal and I accept a genetic effect on cognitive abilty. I keep saying that but no-one listens.
But then in almost the same breath you opine, “that does not address the question of just what IQ is.”

Once again Margaret, here’s the science from Wikipedia:
Quote:
An intelligence quotient or IQ is a score derived from a set of standardized tests developed to measure a person's cognitive abilities ("intelligence") in relation to their age group. An IQ test does not measure intelligence the way a ruler measures height (absolutely), but rather the way a race measures speed (relatively); IQ is described as a "quotient" because, originally, it chronological age.

For people living in the prevailing conditions of the developed world, IQ is highly heritable, and by adulthood the influence of family environment on IQ is undetectable. IQ test scores are correlated with measures of brain structure and function, as well as performance on simple tasks that anyone can complete within a few seconds.

IQ is correlated with academic success, job performance, socioeconomic advancement, and "social pathologies". It is taken by psychologists to be an excellent proxy for intelligence, and possibly the best measurable definition of intellectual ability, but generally not taken to represent intelligence perfectly. Recent work has demonstrated links between IQ and health, longevity, and functional literacy. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ#Social_construct]
The problem of course is your lack of consistency and/or your disingenuousness—you also said in another post that you were “postponing it [addressing the question of IQ differences] so I can focus on one area of scientific misinformation at a time,” and that you were “waiting for any genetic determinists here to point out what it is that I may be missing.”

I’d say you’re missing consistency and intellectual honesty. And perhaps you’re also blinded by your hatred for “conservatives”—if so, I’d suggest you get over it—anyway, those evil “conservatives” will almost certainly outbreed the “liberals.”
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  #30  
Unread March 28th, 2006, 02:20 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Race Differences and Intelligence

Wow, Margaret, great post! It has my vote for post of the year.

My only response is that I don't know that anyone defends:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret McGhee
that Ashkinazim Jews can increase their IQ substantially in just a few generations
It might involve the group having evolved a high IQ over millennia, before there were accounts to reconcile. Then this group was chosen to perform this role for obvious reasons and the higher ones were culled from the group; it's this culling that may have turned an average (or somewhat above-average) population into a group of expected outliers.

Just looking for possible mechanisms...
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