Cape Cod Institute
 
Behavior OnLine Forums  
The gathering place for Mental Health and
Applied Behavior Science Professionals.
 
Become a charter member of Behavior OnLine.

Go Back   Behavior OnLine Forums > BOL Forums > Evolutionary Psychology

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Unread March 4th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 483
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
TJ: Am I more "moral" because I have an engineering degree and a great job and don't want to risk what I have to hold up a gas station?
Not necessarily—I understand Stalin studied for the priesthood b/f he became an atheist/mass murderer, and I doubt he ever held up a gas station. And I suppose there’ve been “engineers” that have also been atheists/mass murderers. Out of curiosity, what’re your specific degree(s) and school, and work experience and earnings?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread March 6th, 2006, 09:51 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas
Posts: 257
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
Not necessarily—I understand Stalin studied for the priesthood b/f he became an atheist/mass murderer, and I doubt he ever held up a gas station. And I suppose there’ve been “engineers” that have also been atheists/mass murderers. Out of curiosity, what’re your specific degree(s) and school, and work experience and earnings?
Wow, are you somewhere way past left field, or what? You must really be annoyed.

My point in that quote was that people tend to weigh what they might lose before they break the law; those with less to lose are more apt to rob a gas station. So your 'objective' morality and 'free will' seems to depend on a person's circumstances. And I stand by my point, which I think is a very good one.

Here's a question I think is more relevant to the conversation: In your 'morality', based on 'free will' and 'objective truth', how do you explain the high proportion of men in prison?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread March 6th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 483
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
TJ: . . . how do you explain the high proportion of men in prison?
JB has provided explanations on why there’re more males in prison in various posts, including here: http://www.behavior.net/bolforums/sh...35&postcount=1.

Additionally, whatever freewill such males may have had prior to jail, they obviously didn’t use it too wisely (and/or may have suffered various mental disorders), and probably have even less free will once they’re in jail.

Keep in mind that although we do have this “free will,” that doesn’t mean that we are necessarily “free” to choose to be, say, a rocket scientist, or professional basketball player, or President. Obviously we all have varying abilities and limitations, and I don’t doubt that some have a higher propensity to screw-up and find themselves in jail.

But the issue is whether most of us have at least some amount of choice in our behavior—e.g., couldn’t Bill Clinton have chosen to refuse that Oval Office BJ, or at least couldn’t he have chosen to be truthful rather than perjure himself regarding said BJ?

Be that as it may, that you’re an “engineer” apparently is relevant to you since you’ve chosen, so to speak, to mention it several times—so why don’t you now choose to provide more (brief) info on your engineer degree/background/experience? If nothing else it may help me better understand your POV . . . but of course the choice is yours.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread March 7th, 2006, 09:33 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas
Posts: 257
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
I don’t doubt that some have a higher propensity to screw-up and find themselves in jail.
Great, we're getting somewhere.

Where does this propensity come from?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread March 7th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 483
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
TJ: Great, we're getting somewhere.
Not really, since you apparently have chosen to not answer my question . . . but that does suggest that you’ve a free will and that you’ve exercised it, doesn’t it? Of course you’ll deny it. Oh well.

Here’s my advice: Choose to behave and you’ll probably avoid jail; and choose to use protection if you choose to participate in extramarital sex and you’ll increase your odds that you’ll avoid those nasty STDs and/or unwanted pregnancies.

Hope that helps. Have a nice day.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread March 7th, 2006, 05:11 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas
Posts: 257
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
since you apparently have chosen to not answer my question
OK, so I've not answered your question about how much money I make and you've not answered mine about where a "higher propensity to screw-up" comes from; interesting. I accept that you've probably seen the logical trap and will not answer my question. So be it, I think those who have read so far understand the strength of my argument:

If a region of the brain can eliminate Fred's ability to feel remorse, and act on it, he does not have free will. He can still think and 'choose', as I've always said, but only to the limits of his brain. Again, not free. And not blind.

Thanks Fred, I hope your day is great, too.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread March 7th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 483
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
TJ: If a region of the brain can eliminate Fred's ability to feel remorse, and act on it, he does not have free will.
Come on Tom—that’s obviously not the issue. If one’s brain is undeveloped or damaged, then one’s “free will” is obviously going to be reduced, perhaps nonexistent. Obviously, a human infant has little or no free will, and obviously one with severe Alzheimer’s has little or no free will. (And also all the other creatures having lesser brains obviously don’t have free will.) What the hell kind of engineer are you? A train? Domestic?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread March 8th, 2006, 10:32 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas
Posts: 257
Smile Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
If one’s brain is undeveloped or damaged, then one’s “free will” is obviously going to be reduced, perhaps nonexistent.
OK, thanks, this is sounding like a conversation. So, do you think the developed brain is an all-or-nothing proposition? Do people either have a "regret module" in perfect working order or none at all? Or do you think that people cover the spectrum of a very sensitive one...kinda sensitive one...barely sensitive one?

Plus, I'll be glad to answer the "what kind of engineer" question if you tell me your religious affiliation.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread March 8th, 2006, 12:37 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 483
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
TJ: OK, thanks, this is sounding like a conversation. So, do you think the developed brain is an all-or-nothing proposition? Do people either have a "regret module" in perfect working order….
A “conversation?” Actually Tom, more like you're beating a dead horse. I’ll summarize one last time for you—

Essentially you’re arguing that, say, Clinton chose that Oval Office BJ, or that he chose to perjure himself regarding said BJ, b/c his “regret module” is not in “perfect working order.” And that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Milošević, etc. all misbehaved b/c their “regret modules” are/were not in “perfect working order”—that essentially they had no choice, no real or meaningful moral responsibility.

I’m arguing that those individuals “chose,” using their free will (unless they truly had some major brain damage I’m not aware of), to do the evil they did—that they were morally responsible for their behavior.


Regarding my “religious” views, I think I’ve indicated this elsewhere, but just for you—

I’ve no specific “affiliation,” but I’m obviously no atheist. I suppose I’m a deist or theist, depending on the day of the week. I usually like Jesus. I have a certain kind of respect for the Bible—it’s fascinating literature/poetry and has had a huge impact on our culture. I also really like what these great scientists (obviously not atheists) have had to say:
Quote:
Einstein: “Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe—a spirit vastly superior to that of man....”

Max Planck: “There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.”

Roger Penrose: "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

And no need for you to come clean on your “engineer” thing. Have a nice day.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread March 8th, 2006, 01:54 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas
Posts: 257
Default Re: Evolved Psychology - Brain Region Tied to Regret Identified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
I’m arguing that those individuals “chose,” using their free will (unless they truly had some major brain damage I’m not aware of), to do the evil they did—that they were morally responsible for their behavior.
I'm always suspect of any concepts that are thought of as yes/no, so I prefer to believe that anything that can be damaged in the brain can be somewhat-damaged, and probably somewhat-developed. But I can understand how that wouldn't jibe with your philosophy. I'll cover the investigation of the border conditions with someone else.

That you agree that free will is somewhat dependent on the condition of the brain is way more than I expected. So, I'll leave it there.

Whether my horse is dead or not, it's been a great ride. But, yes, I feel that they are not morally responsible, and should still be punished/deterred. I can't hate an invalid. And I think that Clinton is such an excellent example; that he risked so much for so little (on MY balance) means that he must've been far more tempted than I; his regret module did not outweigh all the other modules concerning respect for the office, the furniture, his party, his wife, Monica's parents, etc.

And I have a BSEE. I started out in electrical hardware but once I started assembly-language programing, I was forever hooked on the dark side.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995-2004 Behavior OnLine, Inc. All rights reserved.