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#41
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
What a delight to really explore some of these ideas.
You said, Quote:
You said, Quote:
I want to know what went in in Bob's mind to make him punch Brad and not walk away - to cause that state change - not what happened after the state change. Like I said, that is probably not knowable at the neuron and synapse level at least for the foreseeable future - and if you weren't interested I'd understand. You said, Quote:
Margaret |
#42
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
See, you don't need neurons and synapses to talk about this stuff.
Margaret |
#43
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
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You say you agree “entirely on the matter of universal, objective, mathematical truths.†Are you sure? Did you read carefully what I said? I said that objective mathematical truth is timeless and that it “exists independent of the human mind, independent of any evolved sentient being’s mind, and independent of the physical world that we currently find ourselves in.†IOW, the material universe is not all there is, ever was, or ever will be—there is also this other immaterial, timeless, objective world of objective mathematical truth, independent of our material universe, out there, somewhere, that “exists†in some way and that we humans are somehow able to consciously access, understand, and utilize in understanding our natural, material, physical world. Is that really what you’re agreeing to? B/c if you are then you’re conceding that there is indeed more than just the material, “natural†physical world. OTH, if you don’t really agree, then where exactly do your “universal, objective, mathematical truths†“exist,†other than as subjective social/mental constructs of human emergent consciousness, and how could such “universal, objective, mathematical truths†“exist,†in any meaningful way, b/f human consciousness emerged, or b/f some other adequately complex consciousness existed? |
#44
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
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Anyway, black boxes aside, I'm interested to hear your take on the behavior choice problem. Be sure to explain what a mental image is, though -Carey PS - I'm being picky, but crayfish certainly do have a CNS . . . it's just not wrapped in a vertebral column, among other big differences. |
#45
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
OK - I'll work on that tonight to make it as concise as I can. Point taken on CNS's and crayfish.
Margaret |
#46
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
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Yes, I believe ours is a semantic issue brought on by Fred's oversimplification of my views (though the one time I actually had to praise him was for adding my caveat "but should be punished" in one of his mentions that I don't believe people are 'ultimately' responsible for their actions). I do believe people must be held responsible for their actions for just those societal reasons that you stated. I would just hope that the determinism of their crimes would better inform our choices for punishment. I believe I mentioned earlier that everyone should have enough of a stake in society that they wouldn't want to give it up to rob $40 from a convenience store and that criminals ought to be separated from their temptations rather than being demeaned and further hardened. Just something to think about for the distant future, if we survive that long. There is will, there are choices and we must have some means to discourage bad choices. But there is no free will, our wills are directly affected by our instincts and circumstances; there's nothing else. |
#47
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
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IOW Carey, moral responsibility is indeed a matter of free will, of choice, and that’s really the only moral justification for “punishing†law breakers—it would be “wrong†to punish them simply to condition them (although the threat of punishment can certainly be a deterrent), and it would be “wrong†to punish them if, as you say, they “did not have control,†as in the case of children, animals, machines, or the truly insane. |
#48
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
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#49
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
The idea was that punishment is not only meant for the perpetrator, but also for the rest of the population, hence the social context of responsibility.
However, I understand your message that punishment is also meant to change the future behavior of the perpetrator, and so in that sense it's not much use punishing someone who can't make the connection between his actions and the consequences. |
#50
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Re: Pinker's Blank Slate
I took a slow dinner at the local diner to re-read Chapter 7, Emotion and Feeling, of Damasio's Descarte's Error, in preparation for laying out my hypothesis. From some of your comments, Carey, it almost seems like you have not read that seminal book on neurology (1994). Not that I assume you agree with him, just that it's important to be aware of his generally well-accepted findings. I'll offer a few gems as an intro for my hypothesis.
For example, from the jacket: Quote:
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It is also important to understand Damasio's useful separation of emotion and feeling. Emotion is a changed body state in response to some input. Feeling is our awareness of that emotion in the form of images like those above. i.e. feeling is thinking about the emotions we are experiencing which we might report as in, I feel hungry. I'm enjoying the discussion of free-will which has become interesting again. High quality arguments from all participants. Margaret (1) Brain weight and life-span in primate species. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 90:118-22 Last edited by Margaret McGhee; April 16th, 2006 at 12:19 PM.. |
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