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  #41  
Unread February 14th, 2006, 01:04 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Free Will

Oh, sorry, you did ask:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
God “created the universe [what else is there?]"
If you'd remembered my earlier post, you would have known that deism includes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJrzk
a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.
I believe many, if not most, people think that acceptance of a god includes the control, influence, and revelation. That is, if you really care and were not just trying to misrepresent me, again. See, I can be pretty passive-aggressive, too.

Last edited by TomJrzk; February 14th, 2006 at 02:19 PM. Reason: typos
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  #42  
Unread February 14th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Free Will

Quote:
TomJ: I hope others read your previous posts before they bother responding to you...
Yeah, me too. And if they actually took a moment to comprehend my generally succinct explanations, and also assess the not uncommon emotionality and lack of rigor & honesty in those that often argue against me, then that’d be Nirvana. Lizzie and Carey are two great examples—thank you for mentioning them.

You whined somewhere that I was “calling” you a “stupid liar.” I never did of course, and for the record, I doubt you truly are a “liar.” But it does seem that you’re too emotional, and/or you have other issues, for you to honestly assess some of your own arguments here.

Nevertheless, it remains astounding to me that you don’t see, or refuse to acknowledge, the obvious implications of your belief in (a blind/indifferent) determinism and lack of human free will.
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  #43  
Unread February 14th, 2006, 05:08 PM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
Yeah, me too. And if they actually took a moment to comprehend my generally succinct explanations, and also assess the not uncommon emotionality and lack of rigor & honesty in those that often argue against me, then that’d be Nirvana. Lizzie and Carey are two great examples—thank you for mentioning them.

You whined somewhere that I was “calling” you a “stupid liar.” I never did of course, and for the record, I doubt you truly are a “liar.” But it does seem that you’re too emotional, and/or you have other issues, for you to honestly assess some of your own arguments here.

Nevertheless, it remains astounding to me that you don’t see, or refuse to acknowledge, the obvious implications of your belief in (a blind/indifferent) determinism and lack of human free will.
Thanks, Fred. I have what I need now. Yes, I do have other issues that you've helped me to complete. So I'll follow my own advice:

1. I explained 'liar' in terms of your asking for more 'honesty', same thing to me. And 'stupid' in asking for more rigor; though that was a bit more of a stretch it was still fun.

2. You're still misrepresenting me, I have no belief in "(a blind/indifferent) determinism".

3. Oh, and I shoulda said 'tone of your posts'; damn, you're good at this!

I still appreciate your posts, it woulda gotten a lot more quiet over the months without you here.
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  #44  
Unread February 15th, 2006, 08:21 AM
ToddStark ToddStark is offline
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Cool Dennett vs. Dawkins epistemologies

Fred:
"there were rumblings, somewhere, from Dennett suggesting that he may be somewhat less than enthusiastic about his own atheism"

Hi Fred, good to see that you're still going strong too.

My feeling is that Dennett probably is ambivalent about being associated with the extreme atheists like Dawkins because while he sides with them on his opposition to "intelliegent design," he also has a different view on the nature and role of religion in human life, possibly because he has a more realist view of human intentionality. Belief means something subtly more to him (in guiding action) than it does to Dawkins, I think, for whom it seems to be something arbitrary that we may or may not get right.

I think it was no coincidence that Dawkins came up with the most extreme Lockean version of the "meme" idea whereby the human mind is just a mishmosh of ideas from its environment.

Dennett supports the concept in general (in "Darwin's Dangerous Idea") but I think he takes it back just a bit more than Dawkins because he recognizes in various places that we process ideas according to things like particular styles of explanation, genetic preferences, and prior history. This means that memes seem to cluster in particular ways, lending much more structure to a mind than in Dawkins' view, and making intentionality and belief more relevant to philosophy and science of mind.

Anyway, that's the way I think of their respective stances. Perhaps it reflects more of my own than theirs though!

kind regards,

Todd
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  #45  
Unread February 15th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Fred H. Fred H. is offline
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Default Re: Free Will

Quote:
Todd: Belief means something subtly more to him (in guiding action) than it does to Dawkins, I think, for whom it seems to be something arbitrary that we may or may not get right.
Yikes Todd, forgot how less than satisfying I often find your meanderings (but hey man, I still really like you). Anywho, if you have any interest, not that you’ll care or that it’ll have any impact on whatever your POV is, here’s Wright’s perspective on some Dennett statements—http://www.beliefnet.com/story/153/story_15340_1.html
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  #46  
Unread February 28th, 2006, 11:06 AM
TomJrzk TomJrzk is offline
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Default Re: Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred H.
Yikes Todd, forgot how less than satisfying I often find your meanderings (but hey man, I still really like you).
He's still right, though. The world IS deterministic and there are no 'souls' or 'spirits'. Psychology evolved on its own, that's why we have an Evolutionary Psychology forum.
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