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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
Tom, Thanks for your kind remarks. For your reference,
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Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence Margaret |
#32
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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Nevertheless, since you now seem to be acknowledging that IQ/intelligence is a reality and is at least 50% genetic, and even seem to be suggesting that conditions be implemented so as to increase IQ/intelligence, what kind of pogroms do you think could be employed to achieve such goals? (And wouldn't the "less intelligent" have to be selected out, or is there a way around that?) |
#33
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
Margaret, I'm afraid that I might have to agree with Fred (and I see neither ad hominems nor ad homenims in his post!).
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#34
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
Tom, I think I was not as clear as I could have been and the fault for any confusion is mine. My statement was,
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My question has two parts, both of which question the motives of the hereditarians by showing that they ignore solutions to intractable social problems such as crime and poverty that present themselves from their own evidence - when those solutions go against their conservative ideology. The first part asks that if IQ (that highly correlates with future accomplishment according to their view) is substantially dependent on both inheritance (that we can not control over a generation) and environment (that we can control, even hour by hour) - why are not heriditarians insisting that we do whatever we can in the area that we can control - to improve the chances for higher accomplishment in those groups? Instead, the heriditarians focus on the part that we can not control to justify unequal treatment by society. It seems that every scientific explanation for this hereditarian view of maximum potential worth of a human being by birth invariably leads to such political conclusions. Also, that so many previous attempts by hereditarian scientists to support this view of nature over nurture going back over a century, were so aften the result of scientific fraud, makes me highly suspicious. I offer Rushton's quote by JimB that started this thread again here for its ability to capture the essence of this view, Quote:
The second part of my statement is more difficult to justify because it leads in so many directions and because my beliefs in those areas are changing the more I read. About ten minutes after I posted it I realized that it would be challenged so I started then to re-examine the statement and compose some defense (or recantation). I'm still working on that at the level of trying to either justify or change what I believe is true about IQ, intelligence, innate ability, g, factor analysis, etc. I don't know where this will lead but I'm afraid I need more time. For now, I'll just say that it's a good question that deserves a good answer. I know it's silly to think that I'll come up with one when so many real scientists are struggling with it but I'll try just for the mental exercise and to increase my understanding of the question. If I can solidify a more defensible view in the next few days I'll probably start another thread with it as this one is starting to fray. As far as answering a post because it doesn't include any personal attacks - even though those that preceeded it were full of them and those that are coming are sure to be - I have found that the people you come across in life who are worth knowing because of their basic decency are few and far between. It's almost as if people are born with a certain capacity for decency (the d factor) and no amount of training or encouragement can change that. I have found that the best way to make room in my life for those who have it is to ignore those who don't. Margaret |
#35
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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Keep in mind Margaret that you were first to “raise the stakes,†as it were, with your hissy-fit here, http://www.behavior.net/bolforums/sh...7&postcount=49 when you inappropriately personalized whatever it was you perceived I was “suggesting†(at which point Tom seemed to join your attack); and it was you who started playing the racist card with your hideous post here, http://www.behavior.net/bolforums/sh...92&postcount=2 , revealing your self-righteous ideology using accusatory words/phrases directed at JimB, such as the “Full Monte†of a “famous racist,†Jim's “attraction to this area†of general intelligence differences, “the attraction of some Evolutionary Biologists to what I had always considered to be the pseudo-science of Eugenics,†etc., etc. Your problem with me is not that I’m not “decent,†but rather that I candidly challenge and expose your own narrow-minded, self-righteous accusations and ideological dogma for what they are—and I of course always attempt to give as good as I get, or better than I get. And consider that if I weren’t here to, as JimB has observed, “get the pot to simmer,†any threads with just you and Tom would probably be a boring lukewarm at best; plus you two probably wouldn’t have formed the alliance you now seem to enjoy. (I suspect that Tom may not be a “liberal†in quite the same sense that you’re a “liberal,†although you both seem to be “socialists.â€) |
#36
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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That you didn't says a lot. Maybe you could ask your wife to edit. And I don't have an alliance with Margaret, nor am I socialist. I have plenty of differences with Margaret but my goal is to make this a comfortable forum and not beat people over their heads with our differences. Last edited by TomJrzk; March 29th, 2006 at 05:10 PM.. |
#37
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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#38
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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Humans without free will still have a social instinct and their remorse module activates and makes them feel regret when they do something against those instincts; that's the only basis for your 'morality' no matter how much folklore you want to place around it. At least, those humans with a functional remorse module. I don't 'decide' with 'free will' to feel uncomfortable when I run over even part of a dead dog on the freeway, much less a dead person; much, much less a live person. It's instinctive. Last edited by TomJrzk; March 30th, 2006 at 10:01 AM.. |
#39
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
JimB, While I'm waiting for Pinker's books to arrive (should be here today) I went back and read your review of Murray's Magnificent Equality. Here's a little off-the-top-off-my-head review of your review before I run off to a Dr. appt. this morning - even though yours is less a review than a comparison or amplification of Murray's sentiments from your own perspective.
I like your writing. What makes it appealing is that you allow your emotions to shift the focus of your analysis across a range of levels and you seem willing to follow those traces wherever they lead. That kind of writing requires concentration to read - but the payoff is that the reader is treated to a very real account of what you speak. Even if I disagree with some of the linear elements at any one level, I can still appreciate the intellectual honesty of a good mind ticking along impressively. And it's always more interesting when I can feel a person's emotional presence so vividly in their writing. I think writing it over a Barnes and Noble latte enhanced this effect. Where I find fault is on the much less significant content level - where I'm sure we're bound to disagree on many things. The main problem I find with both your and Murray's view is that you both confuse social exaltation with worth - and you both write so unquestioningly, in the sense of how could it possibly be otherwise?. It reminds me of the attempts on the right not too long ago to have Ronald Reagan's likeness carved into Mt. Rushmore. I won't try to dissabuse you of this infuriating conservative notion right now but when you least expect it - expect it - as Christy McNichol once said to her brother. Margaret Last edited by Margaret McGhee; March 30th, 2006 at 11:13 AM.. |
#40
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Re: Race Differences and Intelligence
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Last edited by Fred H.; March 30th, 2006 at 12:53 PM.. |
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