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-   -   Hello (http://www.behavior.net/bolforums/showthread.php?t=415)

John Simon April 1st, 2005 12:17 AM

Hello
 
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

jooopoo@yahoo.com May 9th, 2005 07:18 PM

Re: Hello
 
No! The environment will make the sound but not the tree.

mstieg July 12th, 2005 11:29 PM

Re: Hello
 
We must first know, did it hit a mime?

(j/k we all love mimes.)

John Simon August 5th, 2005 11:03 PM

Re: Hello
 
hello! Hello!

John Simon November 17th, 2005 10:50 AM

Re: Hello
 
Hello! Hello! Hello!

alexandra_k January 12th, 2006 05:08 PM

Re: Hello
 
Depends on the reference of 'sound'. If sound is vibrations in the external world then the answer is yes. If sound is vibrations in the ear then the answer is no. If sound in the subjective quality that arises from vibrations in the ear then the answer is also no.

alexandra_k July 9th, 2006 10:16 AM

Re: Hello
 
if sound is a property of the external environment that typically causes the experience of sound in normal observers under normal conditions (just try cashing that out lol) then yes.

if sound is a property of the observer that is typically caused by the vibrations in the world then no.

what about: can i hear a sound of a tree falling when there is no tree falling?

if sound is a property of the external environment that typically causes the experience of sound in normal observers under normal conditions (just try cashing that out lol) then no.

if sound is a property of the observer that is typically caused by the vibrations in the world then yes.

(typically people worry about colour, but sound is kinda interesting too).
(some people think perceiving - hence seeing and hearing is a success term so if you see / hear x then that entails x. other people disagree)

is it same or different in the case of pain do ya think?

if i have the experience of pain in my left toe but my left leg has been amputated then is there pain in my left toe?

if i have the experience of pain in my left toe but my left leg has been amputated then am i in pain?

seems that there is this causal process:

vibrations -> experience
bodily damage -> experience

we can call vibrations (the objective aspect) sound1 and the phenomenology / experience sound2
we can call bodily damage (the objective aspect) pain1 and the phenomenology / experience pain2

in our everyday lives most people think we tend to go with sound1 and pain2.
there is thus an a-symmetry between sounds / colours, and pains. interesting... that is the problem of focus. why focus on the external object in the case of vision / sound but focus on the phenomenology in the case of pain?


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