Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Explanation of red versus blue states based on white birth rates and Darwinian rational, probably lacking political sensitivity and correctness, but the stats look reasonably convincing—Excerpts from The American Conservative, http://www.amconmag.com/2004_12_06/cover.html, December 20, 2004 issue, The American Conservative, Baby Gap—How birthrates color the electoral map, By Steve Sailer:
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Political thinking and the search for grand unifying theory
Interesting slant, that birth rates influence voting patterns.
With the caveat that I'm not very sophisticated or knowledgeable at political thinking, my general impression is that there are a lot of theorists who have tried to link voting patterns to group identity in some sense, and that the history of this effort has been only partially successful. The Marxists link choice with class identity and economic status. The religious conservatives and "progressives" link it with their particular versions of "values" identity. The racialists link it with race identity. My unqualified suspicion is that while these are sources of leverage we draw on for political power, they may not be the reasons why people vote the way they do. For example, it seems to me that I can vote my "socio-economic class," I can vote my "race," I can vote my "values," and so on. These may lead to different votes. It all depends on how the issues have been framed and what options are open to us. For example, given the choice of two very unappealing candidates this past presidential election, the party leaders and media successfully framed the issues in the way that best polarized and brought dramatic attention to the candidates, even though they were nearly equally conservative in general political terms and each has qualities that to me should have made neither one very attractive compared to a hypothetically optimum candidate. Steve seems to be arguing between the lines that all whites are actually striving for genetic "white power" but that liberals just aren't being honest about it. Their point of contention, he asserts, is that liberals are angry at conservatives for their lack of racial solidarity with them. For example, he argues that gun control is about disarming dangerous urban minorities specifically. In other words, his goal seems to me to be to translate all of politics into issues of racial identity and support it with biological arguments. TO me, that frames these complex issues in a very unrealistic and undesireably narrow way, and in some ways really misses the point. But as I said, I'm not very sophisticated in this area. I agree with him on what I think is a basic underlying assumption that political belief, like much belief, is socially motivated, but I think he is making some oversimplified assumptions about what motivates it and how, in looking for connections to broader biological explanation. A different and compelling argument about the red and blue states, also from statistical evidence, can be found in "Culture War? The Myth of a Polarized America." by Morris Fiorina. I posted a review on Amazon with some further thoughts. kind regards, Todd |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Todd: Nice review on Fiorina’s book. I agree that most of us are “moderate.â€
Nevertheless, I’ve observed more passion then I’d have expected between all of us red and blue “moderates,†and the birth rate correlation seems to explain things better than anything else I’ve seen. I’d always boiled things down to saying people vote their pocketbook; in other words their own survival/comfort. Guess I forgot that for most of us with kids, the survival and future of our offspring usually trumps our own survival and comfort. Blame Darwin. Singles and/or those who don’t stay married long tend to be blue. The rest, especially with offspring, tend to be red—family values. That’s why Utah is especially red. (Heavily unionized Michigan is an exception, but that’s probably due to all that industrial pollution.) |
Explaining the passion (vs. explaining red/blue)
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But I don't see how the passion itself could be the result of birth rates. Birth rates didn't suddenly change radically in the past two elections. What did change is the successful political alliance of economic, social, and neoconservatism under a single banner opposed to a common "liberal" enemy (few of whom would even recognize themselves as such!). Essentially, our social stereotypes were effectively manipulated to leverage political power. Our rational fear of attack was sucessfully leveraged to promote politicians who were more successfully marketed as decisive, protective parents instead of untrustworthy, unrealistic, and overpermissive ones. Our observation of the disruption of social fabric and vulnerability to attack was successfully explained for most people in terms of creeping permissiveness and indecisiveness (the flip side of what many of us think of as freedom, caring, and wise reflection). When people talk about "values" as deciding the past presidential election, this seems to me to refer to people feeling in their gut that they are putting their trust in someone disciplined, strict, and supporting a natural moral order. If we all accepted this stereotype, there would be little need for "unexpected passion" against it, it would make perfect sense to nearly all of us. However, we don't all accept this stereotype. The more conservative of the two conservative parties in the US is now marketed as the party of good discipline, parental protection, true families, life, moral authority, and simple, basic values. The less conservative party has yet to come up with their own effective marketing strategy, and has seemingly been forced to accept the way the more conservative party defines things, that they are the party of death, permissiveness, spoiled dependents, and out-of-touch elitists. One cost of this success has been that the nuances of American conservatism have been pretty must lost by being absorbed into the common marketing vision, just as the stereotype of the "liberals" turns them into an impossibly homogeneous population. The actual correlations that might be observed between birth rate and motivated political belief are obscured by the shifting political coalitions and the perceived pragmatic need for the parties to promote themselves as diametrically opposed ideological extremes. Quote:
kind regards, Todd |
Re: family values explained
Todd writes:
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Best I can tell, the birth rate correlation is a fact. Additionally, there’s a very high correlation between red states and the number of years people are married. So it seems to me that people who stay married and have offspring currently tend to perceive that Republicans better reflect their family values—what is best for the survival and future of their offspring. And single people and those who don't stay married long obviously tend to have different family values. |
U.S. politics
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If you're ever interested in the view of the current red and blue from the perspective of the left (and probably the center as well), just for curiosity ... I got the feeling from skimming Tom Frank's book "What's Wrong with Kansas?" that he captures it pretty well. I gather from some of the reviews that a few of his details on Kansas could probably be debated (perhaps he is too close there to see it objectively?) but I think he captures the general flavor. http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=1551 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../nationbooks08 Have a Happy New Year ! Todd |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
We know that the better off people are, the more the birth rate drops. Industrialized countries have lower birth rates than third world countries, and so forth. And in our country, we see this trend as well. The bettter off you are, the fewer children you have. And the blue states are better off.
I agree that people in red states are think they looking out for their own survival needs, and this might be "darwinian." However, much as I love Darwin, I think the system of evolution by natural selection is one to get away from as fast as we can. It is a terribly tragic, cruel set up, an arms race based on selfishness, competition and greed. It is certainly a dubious criteria for "success". One could almost say that the blue states are trying to help out the red states, (because they care what's best for all Americans, not just their own genetic offspring. And guess what! Because they do better- they have more emotional and financial resources, they end up actually paying for what the blue states don't supply for themselves. (And then get name-called as a result.) Here is a map : Red States feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...ates_feed.html As for "caring about values" and stable families and so forth, red states divorce a lot more . Massachusetts, which gets portrayed as having no morals, has nearly twice the number stable marriages of Texas, and that's typical of blue states:) http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml So if red state "values" are really about caring about families so much, why are blue states splitting their families twice as much blue states? People who are happier, more emotionally and financially stable are in the position to think about something other than how to feed their baby its next meal. They are able to have a "bigger picture" perspective. They are able to have a less short-sighted, less selfish, and yes, less "Darwinian" approach to life. |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Lizzie:
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There are divorce rate statistics based on per marriage (from CDC data I think), and those stats seem to indicate that there is no red or blue state correlation. On the other hand, when it comes to “splitting their families,†Kerry from Massachusetts did, Bush from Texas didn’t. Also, your use of “Red States feed at Federal Trough†statistics appears to be equally flawed, but I suspect that your beliefs lie in a left leaning blue state direction, so I won’t bore you with contrary data. However, regarding your belief that “the system of evolution by natural selection is one to get away from as fast as we can,†it’s likely that many of my red state brethren would say, "Amen sister!" |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
from Fred:
"However, regarding your belief that ?the system of evolution by natural selection is one to get away from as fast as we can,î it?s likely that many of my red state brethren would say, "Amen sister!" " Hahaha! But do you mean they would give me an "Amen" by denying the truth of natural selection, or getting away from it by saying, "yes, it's true, and it's an awful system!" (Sadly I suspect it's the former.) I can appreciate your comments about the flawed data, especially because there's a NY Times article about that very phenomenon that I was just reading (it's in today's Science section: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/he...pagewanted=all It was saying national divorce rates are not the 2 in 1 figure we've been told they are, it's more like 41%. However, I was interested to find some data that again, indicated that the better off we are, the less we divorce. In this case, it "better off" indicator was the education level of the women. "Families with highly educated mothers and families with less educated mothers are clearly moving in opposite directions," Dr. Martin wrote in a paper that has not yet been published but has been presented and widely discussed at scientific meetings.To me, this data supports my earlier point, which is that how well people are doing has a lot to do with the personal choices they make (regarding their families and reproduction) the political choices they make (should we share or keep resources), and the the depth and range of their perspectives (big picture, rationality/ small picture, short term, often emotional responses to immediate problems.). |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Lizzie:
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And regarding your point—“that how well people are doing has a lot to do with the personal choices they make (regarding their families and reproduction) the political choices they make (should we share or keep resources), and the depth and range of their perspectives (big picture, rationality/ small picture, short term, often emotional responses to immediate problems)â€â€”I think that most red state heterosexual couples that stay married and have 1.8 children would say, again, “Amen sister.†|
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Regarding this "Amen, sister". It's interesting, I have a southern Ohio Christian fundamentalist cousin (she and her husband are leaders ofCampus Crusaders for Christ) , and I always want to talk to her about what we both care about. I think we have so many similarities, yet so many deep differences. I often think that the way "liberals" get vilified is so unfair, and that actually my values, morals etc., of love, unselfishness, really overlap hers so much. The thing is, I'm an athiest, (or a "bright", to try to sound a little more positive) and an accepter of the truth of evolution. (Whereas her husband spent the Thanksgiving blessing talking about how evolution "just doesn't make sense".) So I dont' know how she'd make sense of my sharing some of her values, without sharing her Lord. In fact, I think that a bedrock of her faith is that I can't. Which again just seems so unfair, and so untrue!
But, although she talks about her views all the time- in fact makes her career of it, I am still closeted in the family for being an atheist. Mainly, I don't want to make people feel bad, because I know there is a lot of emotional comfort in faith. But it's sad, because I think that comfort leads to lots of ultimate misery. You know, I wondered if you were going to put down the NY Times. It's just my local newspaper, you know. I actually also enjoy USA Today, but NY Times my city newspaper. It's far from perfect, but at least they have a Science section! That ain't nothing! I mean, the Macon Telegraph and News, the paper I grew up reading in Georgia, had nothing of the sort! Really, I think Science News is fascinating and entertaining, and... important! I think this is something to be applauded! I mean, do you think Saudi Arabia Times has a Science Section?! |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Lizzie:
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I find fundamentalists and atheists often to be equally artless—fundamentalists insist that they don’t believe in evolution, and atheists insist that a circular teleology—natural selection—confirms a directionless and ultimately purposeless evolution. But of course the fundamentalists will outbreed you atheists, so perhaps, Lizzie, you should reconsider your atheism . . . it’s been said that it’s better to be red than dead. |
Reproduction For the Purposes of Besting Other People
I don't hear where I'm vilifying fundamentalists. I just disagree with them, and I fear their influence (as I'm sure they fear mine.)
I hear you doing something closer to "vilifying" both groups. I actually consider the suggestion that I should start reproducing for the purposes of competition to be rather "artless". So, do you participate in an evolution website yet not "believe" the essential mechanism of evolution- natural selection?? I don't follow.... |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Yeah, I tend to vilify both groups.
I think one could argue that creating children, albeit somewhat instinctive even for us humans, is our highest form of art. Saying that natural selection is an essential mechanism of evolution is about as helpful as saying that natural forces are the essential mechanisms in the evolution of our galaxy/solar system, without defining/quantifying the various natural forces. Unlike gravity, electromagnetism, etc., natural selection isn’t quantified nor clearly defined—best I can tell, it’s not much more than a circular teleology, a just so story. (Interestingly, all the natural forces that have been discovered/quantified so far are deterministic, the only exception being the apparent randomness at the quantum level when a measurement is made.) |
Natural Selection
Perhaps loving children might be counted as a high art form, but merely creating them, as you suggested, certainly couldn't. Any old selfish, thoughtless jerk can and does do that, every day, every second. It's yet another tragedy of planet earth.
If you are relating natural selection to mere "natural forces" and claiming it is all a big "just so" story, then you're not much different from an "Intelligent Design" so-called "expert". Ie. you haven't educated yourself on that which you are discussing, and apparently you don't really have any interest in sincere debate. It seems as though you have bones to pick, ideologies to uphold,and arguments regarding how you and your kind are better than others, and you are misusing evolutionary psychology as a vehicle to do so. I had wanted to discuss science. P.S. Natural selection, which you claimed is "not clearly defined" is in fact quite clearly and specifically defined by biologists as: "differential reproductive success of genotypes" Here's more, from an excellent introduction to evolutionary biology: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-...o-biology.html Quote:
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Re: definition of the natural selection process
Lizzie:
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And that, my endangered blue state friend, is circular! Lizzsie, at the beginning of this thread you implored that “the system of evolution by natural selection is one to get away from as fast as we can.†Well sister Lizzie, brother Fred has shown you the way. It is finished. Go in peace, be kind, and spread the good news that science does not confirm that we are products of a meaningless, purposeless, and directionless process. |
Cultivating the Seeds of Virtue
The repeatedly tested, universally agreed upon definition of natural selection and its effects are anything but circular. The way you presented it indeed was circular. I don't think that represents anything except your level of understanding about the concept.
I get the feeling that you are conflating "genetic success" with personal success. That's sort of like saying roaches are some of the most successful species. I suppose from a biological perspective they are. But I don't think from a reasonable, human moral perspective they would be. I personally am much more impressed by the success of someone, who, say, is honest, is kind, has a sense of humor, qualities I don't know have been observed in roaches... There is more to science (and to biology), than natural selection. It is the basic foundation of the field that should be well understood before discussing evolution,though. And, the essential processes of natural selection rely on mechanisms that, from a human moral perspective, should be condemned, rather than applauded. This is a major shift in how we usually think about things, a paradigm shift, but if one allows this to sink in, then everything else falls into place. Am I saying that any positive acts of kindness, cooperation, altruism just spring out of thin air? No, I'm not, though you might be (or you might say they come from supernatural origins, which is pretty much the same claim.) We can (and do!) study social systems of other primates to see where what (we humans consider to be) positive virtues originate. So, it's not that we as carriers of "selfish" genes are entirely selfish and awful in every way, because we see in the social systems of other animals that there are the seeds of virtue. In short, these seeds of virtue originate because it is to the genetic advantage of social groups to ultimately stay coherent and get along. It is these kernals of cooperation that we (if we care about doing what is good and right and smart) should focus on and cultivate, rather than on simply repeating crude versions of "genetic success", which, again even a roach can achieve. We can set the bar a little higher than what insects pull off. Just because we don't like the fact of natural selection doesn't mean that we should deny that its existence. Besides, the truth will win out, whether now or in 200 years. That's because the ways of natural selection are, in the worlds of distinguished 20th c. biologish George C. Williams, "abysymally stupid." We can be smarter than that. (Although we should have been smarter about all this already.) We obviously can harness the tools of love and education to get over our nasty, brutish heritage. So, even though natural selection certainly has no prior goals, purpose or direction, perhaps we could say that insights gleaned from biology can, after all, give us some goals! We can (and perhaps should be morally compelled) to recognize the inherent tragedy of the world, and address it by trying to improve on the awful suffering rampant in the world around us. That's what I for one would like to try to do. |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Lizzie:
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But then that renders your assertion—that “the essential processes of natural selection rely on mechanisms that, from a human moral perspective, should be condemned, rather than applaudedâ€â€”to be somewhat schizophrenic. I suggest you read the following, and follow the argument wherever it leads— Thinking Straighter, Why the world's most famous atheist now believes in God, by James A. Beverley | posted 04/08/2005 09:00 a.m. |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
from Fred:
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Like a wild almond that is coated in cyanide in it's natural state, we can, through cultivation, concentrate our efforts to produce something good, like the artificially selected, domesticated, unpoisonous ones that we enjoy today. As for the article, I'm sorry, but it didn't convince me of anything at all. I never did see his "evidence" for God, I saw lots of credentials and talk around that so called "evidence". I do plan to read "Mere Christianity" by Lewis, maybe I'll be able to learn something from him- he's a former atheist turned actual Christian. I only read it quickly, but an article that starts off "agnostics were worried" was already a red flag for me that ineffective argument was about to be put forth. Because why would agnostics "worry" about a shift in someone else's beliefs? Since they themselves are not committed to any certain worldview, it seems like they actually might understand a shift in beliefs very easily! This guy claimed to be "impressed by Jesus" because Jesus was a "charismatic figure". (Like Mohammad of Islam wasn't "charismatic"!) To think that Jesus' charisma was more important than his message of love, grace, forgiveness, and humility, indicates that to me, this guy has his values mixed up and is not worth listening to. Personally, I would respect a person's belief in God much, much more if they had an advanced, fleshed out theology that goes with it, and helps them achieve a growth in their own morality, their own expectations of themself. Finally, this guy was "impressed" by Intelligent Design, which fortifies my feeling that, despite the creditials listed throughout, he's not much of a scholar/ thinker/ philosopher, after all. |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Lizzie:
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For decades, Antony Flew has been among the most influential of atheist thinkers, a powerful opponent of religious belief. He’s had teaching positions at Oxford and Aberdeen, and Professorships at Keele and Reading; and has argued that theological claims should not be taken seriously because they can’t be falsified; and that atheism ought to be the default position, that the burden of proof on the question of God’s existence lies with the theist, etc. In 2004, however, after decades of “following the argument,†Flew changed his mind, and is no longer an atheist. Aren’t you impressed that someone with all his credentials, at the age of 81 no less, is able to admit that he’s been so wrong for all those decades? What does all this mean? Obviously, atheism is dead (sounds somehow redundant, doesn’t it?), although many of y’all may never comprehend its obvious demise. |
Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
This is going nowhere, and you're getting condescending. Farewell.
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Religion and morality
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Todd |
congrats
Congratulations, Fred, your brilliant master strategy of unwavering recalcitrance has netted you yet another grand victory in this forum. And you didn't even need me as a stooge this time! :rolleyes:
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Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
Oh Todd, you’re no stooge . . . and, I suppose that Lizzie did make some amazing points—here’re a few of her better ones:
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Re: Red vs. blue explained by white birth rate & Darwinian rational
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There must be something in the fashion world that I wouldn't have guessed; my wife is also an Atheist and got a Bachelor's in fashion! Whoda guessed!?!?! You said so many things I agreed with that I have only one to pick on: I believe that it's beyond perilous to assign causes to effects. To illustrate what I mean, I WON'T defend this 'cause' but offer it as an alternative to what you've assigned as a cause (smarter, more successful populations) to the red vs blue federal receipts: perhaps those blue states have the majority of the 'best' places to live (I'd rather be in ANY of the top 10 paying states than ANY of the top 10 takers, and I suspect that you would too), the 'best' places have the highest costs of living, require the highest salaries, and pay the most income tax. These most comfortable places to live also attract the most indigents who vote in Democrats who take from the rich and give to the poor. |
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