CHAT TRANSCRIPT - Oct. 24, 1999

15:17:04	JohnSuler-m	OK EVERYONE.... LET'S BEGIN
15:17:18	JohnSuler-m	BEHAVIOR ONLINE WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME YOU TO THIS PANEL DISCUSSION ON HEALTHY AND PATHOLOGICAL INTERNET USE.....THANK YOU FOR COMING!
15:17:37	JohnSuler-m	OUR PANELISTS INCLUDE MICHAEL FENICHEL, STORM KING, STEVEN STERN, AND KIMBERLY YOUNG..... with me as the moderator. A "p" appears after the name of each panelist. David Greenberg, who was originally scheduled as a panelist, hopes to be able to join us late
15:18:01	JohnSuler-m	You can read about the panelists' work and backgrounds in the program for this meeting, which is located at http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/psycyber/bolchatpath.html (you should be able to click on that url and it will activate your browser)
15:18:20	JohnSuler-m	During the panel discussion, please refrain from sending public messages. You are welcome to "whisper" (send private messages) to other attenders, but keep in mind that if you whisper to someone, the chat program places a series of dots next to your name.
15:18:43	JohnSuler-m	Please also refrain from sending private messages to the panelists. They will have their hands full with typing!
15:19:08	JohnSuler-m	AFTER THE PANEL DISCUSSION, WHEN I OPEN UP THE MEETING TO QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE, INDICATE THAT YOU WANT TO SPEAK BY TYPING THE MESSAGE "HAND." WE'LL TAKE THE QUESTIONS/COMMENTS IN ORDER.
15:19:34	JohnSuler-m	(since the group is not too large, we may dispense with that hand raising procedure at some point
15:19:51	JohnSuler-m	Within a few days, a TRANSCRIPT of this meeting will be placed online at /chatevents/index.html
15:20:22	JohnSuler-m	OK panelists.... let's start... usually I begin these meetings with a question but...
15:20:39	JohnSuler-m	what do you think is a good question about healthy versus pathological internet use?
15:21:46	KimberlyYoung-p	A good starter question might be how to differentiate normal from compulsive use of the Internet?
15:22:37	JohnSuler-m	good kimberly... how do we tell the difference between the two?
15:24:07	Storm	yes. a definition would be a good starting point. I wanted to propose the term Internet enabled pathology and then think about net addiction as a type of that. (in terms of clarifying what it is we are tying to define)
15:24:23	KimberlyYoung-p	IMHO, I have utilize modified criteria from the DSM-IV for Pathological Gambling as a model to examine compulsive use of the Internet, but I would also like to hear what other panelists believe as well...didn't mean to answer my own question :-)
15:24:38	Dr-Mike-p	I often site your notion of *integrating* online and offline life, but also inevitably think about *extent* of each. I agree with Kimberly's focus on compulsion, too. Quality vs Quantity of relationships online? (Gee, I think I'm surrounded by compulsive whisperers!)
15:25:51	JohnSuler-m	is compulsiveness a feature of all internet enabled pathology?
15:26:35	Dr-Mike-p	I don't think one is by necessity being compulsive. Some may feel empty or "bored".
15:27:00	Storm	yes - compulsiveness would be a factor I would think, for most forms of it
15:27:45	KimberlyYoung-p	I think compulsiveness, in light of the DSM-IV criteria, focuses on behavior
15:27:49	Steven-Stern--P	Compulsiveness and boredom cause all sorts of symptoms--I think of internet overuse as just one of many possible symptoms
15:28:59	KimberlyYoung-p	But what I find it the reasons for compulsive use of the Internet tend to vary dependent upon the types of applications one is compulsive about and the underlying motivations for compulsive use
15:29:24	JohnSuler-m	what are those underlying motivations?
15:29:32	Storm	So - what does anyone think it is about the net that is uniquely a sources of pathology?
15:30:03	KimberlyYoung-p	For example, one person might be "addicted" to chat rooms, another person to cyberporn, and yet another person to online auction houses
15:30:08	Dr-Mike-p	I don't disagree that much "pathological" use has become compulsive, a la DSM-IV. And I too see the prevalence of Internet-enabled addictionS (shopping, gambling, etc) which may, as John suggests, have something underlying them which is similar. I think the net facilitates this.
15:30:15	Steven-Stern--P	I would argue that the net makes compulsive behavior easier due to the anonymity
15:30:35	KimberlyYoung-p	The Internet being such a diverse set of applications I think leads to subtypes of the pathology
15:30:51	Dr-Mike-p	...and ease of access and reinforcement...
15:31:13	Steven-Stern--P	I strongly agree with Kimberly's last assertion--so Is net addiction a single disorder?
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15:31:20	JohnSuler-m	An underlying question is whether the internet CAUSES these pathological behavior, or is it a catalyst that activates pre-existing pathology
15:31:22	JOIN	G-Novitsky has joined.
15:31:43	Dr-Mike-p	Is the net a single thing? :-)
15:32:19	Steven-Stern--P	I strongly believe that many things in our environment are catalysts, the net being one of them
15:32:48	Storm	Does a slot machine CAUSE pathological gambling? No - it enables it for some people who find that from of reinforcement to much to handel
15:33:33	Dr-Mike-p	(sorry about the double--"enter" acts like "send" I've discovered) Exactly Storm. In "addiction" terms, I see the net's easy pickings as a "facilitator".
15:33:40	KimberlyYoung-p	Cause and effect is rather difficult to determine, perhaps we need to examine the reasons for addictive and compulsive behavior in general to better understand how to examine that question in terms of the Internet
15:33:54	JohnSuler-m	what is the worse case of internet addiction that you people have seen?
15:35:31	Dr-Mike-p	I yield to Kimberly, whose stories are legion. But only this week I got a call from a woman whose husband locks himself in the room, has stopped going to work, and now run off to "clear his head".
15:35:36	Storm	The worst I've heard of may be the reports of the lady that lost 70,000$ to an online casino.
15:36:15	KimberlyYoung-p	While a good questions, I find it difficult to talk about a worst case as for each person who suffers from the problem, the individuals feels helpless and out of control but I will say that one in particular was very disturbing...
15:37:09	KimberlyYoung-p	A 12-year old took his mother's life and then his own after his mother had taken away the computer
15:37:43	Storm	ouch!
15:37:50	KimberlyYoung-p	In brief, he had continued to use the Internet against his mother's wishes, this went on for several months and she finally dismantled the computer
15:38:12	JohnSuler-m	how tragic, Kimberly
15:38:27	KimberlyYoung-p	he noted his depression and agitation growing and was in the middle of trying to find counseling to help her son when he took a gun the mother kept in the home for protection and used it
15:38:44	Dr-Mike-p	Gee, I've not seen anything so severe (except Columbine HS's web page), but I do have teen clients who stay up all night playing games and bomb out of school, and get into horrible fights with their families.
15:38:51	KimberlyYoung-p	left a suicide note that indicated that she was responsible for taking away his entire world
15:39:09	JohnSuler-m	what was he doing online, Kimberly?
15:39:12	KimberlyYoung-p	he police contacted me about this, it was perhaps the most disturbing thing I had heard
15:39:27	KimberlyYoung-p	that is when the police contacted me
15:39:36	KimberlyYoung-p	he was using chat rooms mostly
15:40:30	KimberlyYoung-p	I don't mean to sensationalize this tragedy nor blame the Internet, but I think that it points to how subjective the experience can become
15:40:41	JohnSuler-m	one sign of addiction is the narrowing of the person's life to the addictive element, with anything else being seen as a distraction or obstacle to the addictive substance... this sounds like a perfect example of that
15:40:51	Dr-Mike-p	Btw, I feel obliged to point out that with Columbine HS, etc. almost always it is that agitation/depression/suicidality which leads to acting out in a grand way to take out others! (Not necessarily Internet-related!)
15:41:01	KimberlyYoung-p	and how intense the feelings are in relation to Internet use and online relationships (with the assumption that was this boy's entire world and focus)
15:42:07	Storm	I believe we have 2 cases. One - disturbed people (like this child) and people with addictive tendencies who find the net and then use it to play out an existing, underlying pathology. Two - is the person who has not pre-existing pathology but for whom the use of the net is so highly reinforcing (due to it's unique reinforcement value) that they become pathological in their net use.
15:42:25	JohnSuler-m	let's go back to a question that someone raised earlier... is there anything UNIQUE about the internet that makes it addictive?
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15:43:21	Steven-Stern--P	The internet makes it possible to do things that were previously unavailable to many (gambling) or embarrassing (porn consumption)
15:43:24	Dr-Mike-p	Variable reinforcement? Constant availability 24/7? The nice warm glow of the monitor-mother?
15:43:33	JohnSuler-m	a good issue Storm... if someone without obvious pre-existing pathology gets overly involved in the internet, is this an addiction? Did the internet cause it?
15:43:49	Storm	Yes. The net is unique in the ability to be anonymous and it the social norm online that lets people interact with "strangers."
15:44:38	Dr-Mike-p	Not unlike CB radio (for adolescent boys, at least)-- there's power and anonymity, together.
15:44:47	KimberlyYoung-p	Well, in the prior discussion here, it seems that anonymity, direct reinforcement coupled with immediate gratification, accessibility to what has previously been difficult to obtain (e.g., graphic pornography) all may be elements about Internet use that are addictive properties
15:44:54	Steven-Stern--P	What is the benefit of grouping all compulsive behaviors that people exhibit over the internet as a single disorder?
15:45:29	JohnSuler-m	as Kimberly is suggesting.. it's interesting that there is a difference between the subjective and objective indices of being addicted
15:46:04	Storm	Yes. Kimberly has listed the UNIQUE qualities of the net that some people find hard to resist
15:46:19	JohnSuler-m	Steven... how would you categorize the different types of internet addiction?
15:47:01	Steven-Stern--P	Actually, I don't actually believe there is "Internet addiction"
15:47:39	JohnSuler-m	Go ahead with that, Steven... please explain
15:47:49	Steven-Stern--P	There are many behaviors that become easier over the internet, but I see no reason to categorize them by a new and potentially non-permanent technology
15:47:50	Dr-Mike-p	Somebody at APA-Boston (maybe Steven, or David?) made the point about Internet AddictionS being plural, a point I've embraced. And Kimberly, even your own description of addiction to THE net describes all the different components. I like your tendency to focus on the "gambling"-like (reinforcement based) compulsive qualities, rather than the neuro-physical-substance approach.
15:47:51	Storm	Ok Steve - what do you believe is causing the reports of failed lives?
15:48:07	KimberlyYoung-p	To address Steven's question, I am not sure it has been recognized as a "single" disorder but I think the concept of compulsive, pathological, or addictive use of the Internet serves as an umbrella term to describe a type of behavior pattern
15:48:21	Steven-Stern--P	People have failed their lives over many, many things before the internet came along
15:49:44	Steven-Stern--P	Technologies are fleeting---as a scientist, I am worried that we are organizing our field around something that may not even exist after a while
15:50:21	KimberlyYoung-p	thank you Dr. Mike, I have found that models for process addictions or behavioral addictions are useful in understanding the maladaptive behavior related to the Internet
15:50:29	Storm	This is an organized field? :-)
15:50:57	JohnSuler-m	is part of the problem that the concepts of "addiction" are themselves very elusive and complex? and "compulsions"
15:51:50	Storm	As a friend of mine said - yes...lifes can fail and often it is caused by addictions...or at least inability to focus
15:51:56	Dr-Mike-p	Steven- maybe that's why sociology/psych etc are viewed as "soft-sciences"? They're malleable and illusive at times. Organized, Storm? Hah! And you're welcome, Kimberly, I've also assimilated many concepts from your presentations, as well as Storm's and others'.
15:51:56	Dr-Mike-p	Steven- maybe that's why sociology/psych etc are viewed as "soft-sciences"? They're malleable and illusive at times. Organized, Storm? Hah! And you're welcome, Kimberly, I've also assimilated many concepts from your presentations, as well as Storm's and others'.
15:52:08	KimberlyYoung-p	John, you make an excellent point, I think the addiction field has long had trouble reaching agreement, which makes the complexity of understanding this concept more difficult
15:52:20	Dr-Mike-p	Oops! How'd I do that? (Twice) sorry...
15:53:13	Storm	Why is pathological gambling recognized as a separate pathology within the impulse control disorders? the internet has a reinforcement qualities similar to a slot machine.
15:53:16	JohnSuler-m	if we step back for a moment.. what do we make out of this whole debate about "internet addiction"... is there something to learn from that?
15:53:47	Steven-Stern--P	Storm--people gambled for centuries before slot machines were invented as well
15:54:42	Dr-Mike-p	I think one reasonable conclusion is that the easy one-size-fits-all label is easy to make into a pop-phenomenon. But as Storm says, there's probably at least 2 sizes.
15:54:49	KimberlyYoung-p	Interesting point, Storm...I am not sure I have an answer as to why it is signed out
15:55:02	Storm	Steve - you are evading my question. If gambling, why not the net too?
15:55:26	Steven-Stern--P	gambling is a behavior, the internet is an object
15:56:21	Storm	Pardon me?
15:56:35	Dr-Mike-p	I think blackjack or Caveman "go fish" (or pterodactyl) was on a VR schedule, too. My own paper on "internet addiction" focuses on the combination of reinforcement and instant gratification. Then too are the aspects of what one "escapes".
15:56:37	Storm	It is the behavior of the use of the net that is the topic here
15:57:12	JohnSuler-m	OK. LET'S OPEN UP THE MEETING TO QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE. INDICATE THAT YOU WANT TO SPEAK BY TYPING THE MESSAGE "HAND." WE'LL TAKE THE QUESTIONS/COMMENTS IN ORDER.
15:57:26	Steven-Stern--P	Storm--I would argue that we should focus on the behavior--call a gambling addiction a gambling addiction whether it is in a casino row on casino.com
15:57:27	G-Novitsky	hand
15:57:59	JohnSuler-m	OK G-Novitsky...go ahead
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15:58:28	G-Novitsky	Yes--my first comment is about just that point, Dr. Stern...
15:58:31	SteveBiggs	HAND: I'm surprised that no one is drawing any comparisons between Internet over use and the classic multimedia pathology, televistelefunkenion, Especially with a 100+ channels on cable and remote control. I imagine more people are wasting more time at home with this medium than with the Internet.
15:58:38	G-Novitsky	sorry
15:59:12	G-Novitsky	Why are we even calling this ONE or even TWO addictions...
15:59:38	G-Novitsky	when we have actually got a situation where we the net facilitates many...
15:59:43	Storm	Steve - I kind of agree with you, but, casino.com is a far different deal that Las Vegas. That difference is what makes the net pathological for some in ways that would not otherwise exist - hence Internet enabled pathology as a valid field of study.
16:00:05	G-Novitsky	e.g., sexual addictions of various types, gambling addictions, etc.
16:00:08	Dr-Mike-p	The September APA American Psychologist has a series of Comments by and about the Carnegie-Mellon team which posited a great deal of subtlety between online behavior and the "real world" as it exists now (which is increasingly online!). And point taken.... First was "radio addiction", then telephone, tv, and now something new.... maybe we're discussing "technology addiction" or "entertainment addiction" or "communication addiction" as well. (I'm a self-professed "news addict")
16:00:23	Danielle	hand
16:00:33	JohnGrohol	hand
16:00:47	Steven-Stern--P	Storm-Internet enabled sounds better to me than internet addiction, but I'm not sure as a diagnosis of any theoretical substance
16:00:49	G-Novitsky	Do we judge addiction by the venue in which the behavior is carried out, or by the focus of the addictive behavior?
16:01:19	Marlene	hand
16:01:31	Storm	G-Novitsky - we do both.
16:01:40	Azy	HAND
16:01:44	Steven-Stern--P	I think we should regain our focus on the addictive behavior
16:02:30	JohnSuler-m	DANIELLE, go ahead with your question
16:02:36	G-Novitsky	Storm-are we saying, You are a casino-gambling-addict, or You are an online-casino-gambling addict?
16:03:10	Dr-Mike-p	I just became confused for a moment, so went back to check: The title of this presentation is: Healthy and Pathological Internet Use
16:04:16	Danielle	As a researcher of addictions, It is apparent to me that when behavior interferes with interpersonal functioning than that is problem behavior...no matter what the medium it gets channeled by..?
16:05:35	Storm	Yes - a clinically significant impairment in functioning
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16:06:18	Dr-Mike-p	I agree completely with Danielle. I don't think humans are pre-wired to relate to the Internet differently than their favorite slot machine, drug, or compulsive activity offline!
16:06:23	JohnSuler-m	Is there any pathological behavior that doesn't interfere with interpersonal functioning....hm... gonna have to think about that
16:06:34	KimberlyYoung-P	Sorry, having web trouble here and unable to send the last few messages
16:07:15	Steven-Stern--P	Dr.Mike--I still think we need to organize our field by addictive things and things that help deliver them to us. We oughtn't mix the two
16:07:17	SteveBiggs	HAND
16:07:23	JohnSuler-m	JOHN... go ahead with your question
16:07:27	JohnGrohol	I think what we're seeing here is not an addiction, but an acclimation behavior. People take time to get acclimated to new things in their lives. Whether it's TV, a telephone, whatever... until/unless someone tracks these behaviors over time, and uses an actual *control group*, we'll simply never know. And I agree with Steven Stern... Call porn addiction, porn addiction, no matter what the modality. Call gambling, gambling, online or off.
16:07:45	KimberlyYoung-P	Process models for addiction focus on maladaptive behavior
16:08:22	KimberlyYoung-P	In that context, perhaps we need to evaluate Internet behavior as we do behavior surrounding gambling, sexuality, and eating
16:08:37	Storm	I think Mike and Danielle are on the right track here - pathological use of anything is important to look at, and the net has identifiable aspects that are very different from previous technologies
16:09:06	JohnSuler-m	OK... FREE FOR ALL... OPEN DISCUSSION!!
16:09:21	Azy	somehow the discussion here focused on internet addiction(s) as a sole pathological use of the Net. What I usually see are OTHER, less severe pathologies, such as permanently harassing people in chat rooms, or permanently using dirty language (to draw attention?). These, in my mind, are more serious pathologies than Internet addictive behaviors! I'd like to know why the panel elected to concentrate mainly on Internet addiction?
16:09:23	Marlene	I think we need to take a look at the reinforcement our culture provides for "maladaptive behavior"
16:09:52	JohnGrohol	Good point Azy.
16:10:07	JohnSuler-m	good point, Azy.... we need more time
16:10:32	JohnSuler-m	From what I know of people who act out like that online, they often are using the internet excessively
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16:11:02	Dr-Mike-p	Well, factoring in John G's point about acclimation and lack of control groups, it's awful tough to separate out the variance of Internet-enabled versus other forms of compulsive behavior. A thing about Internet as opposed to tv and radio (but consistent with the telephone and slot machine) is that it is interactive and multi-sensory.
16:11:10	KimberlyYoung-P	Yes, Good point Azy, there are a variety of issues to discuss and not enough time
16:11:15	Steven-Stern--P	John--it seems it would be hard to separate the two--the more you use the net, the more you have time to misbehave
16:11:17	Azy	I'm not really sure of that, John. Some people behave so only when anonymous!
16:11:21	JohnGrohol	I think we see that the Internet is a very enabling technology. It enables great things (like online support groups) and negative things (like maladaptive behaviors). Just as the telephone brought great distances together, the Internet is bringing people together even more, for better and for worse.
16:11:21	JohnSuler-m	i.e... I think there's a significant overlap between excessive internet use and acting out online
16:11:24	Danielle	I agree with Storm and Marlene...That is imperative that we continue to research the problems that are actually occurring online...people are getting into and exacerbating problem behaviors online
16:11:25	Storm	John G. - is it not easy to see that net enabled gambling addiction is very different from f2f gambling addiction, and deserving of it's own classification? think about the ease of access issue.
16:11:56	SteveBiggs	Can anyone really operationalize the criteria for pathological internet use? Is it any different than say pathological phone use? And, has anyone successfully billed a third party payer for treating IAD?
16:12:33	Marlene	I think you can, Steve...but not with the current DSM nosology...
16:12:34	KimberlyYoung-P	Perhaps there are several debates here - one clearly seems academic and the other the clinical implications of this problem
16:12:46	stephanie	I'm looking for psychological articles about online therapy/counseling - can anyone help?
16:12:54	JohnGrohol	Storm... I know of gamblers who have picked up and moved to Atlantic City or Las Vegas to be closer to their addiction. With the advent of riverboat gambling, Indian reservation gambling, and lotteries, I don't think access is much of an issue any longer.
16:13:10	JohnSuler-m	speaking for myself.... I don't use DSM categories much, so I don't think in those terms
16:13:14	KimberlyYoung-P	In treatment settings, typically Impulse-control disorder NOS or OCD are utilized for third party payment in these cases
16:13:51	Azy	stephanie, there are quite a few now...
16:13:52	JohnSuler-m	I think in terms of personality styles and developmental levels of functioning
16:14:14	JohnSuler-m	so understanding internet addiction works on a case by case level
16:14:31	SteveBiggs	I'm not really talking about DSM Nosology, but good psychological practice clearly defining a variable so that we can discriminate it from others.
16:14:38	Dr-Mike-p	I agree with Kimberly... there are an abundance of interesting and ripe areas for exploration...both academic *and* clinical! And Stephanie, there are resources on the ISMHO web site, for a start, www.ismho.org
16:15:04	Danielle	John...Do you think there is an addictive personality type?
16:15:54	stephanie	thanks a lot
16:15:59	Azy	research shows that there is no addictive personality type ACROSS DIFFERENT ADDICTIONS
16:16:02	JohnSuler-m	a very good question... the answer, I think, is yes
16:16:23	JohnSuler-m	but the dynamics vary according to developmental levels of functioning
16:16:48	Danielle	Thank you I agree
16:16:55	JohnSuler-m	on the neurotic level, it is a repetition compulsion, as Freud described
16:17:08	KimberlyYoung-P	To operationalize pathological use of the Internet, I developed eight criteria based upon the modified DSM-IV criteria for Pathological Gambling, typically included in my articles, some of the items include concealing the behavior, using the Internet to escape, continued use despite the consequences, inability to stop or control the behavior
16:17:19	Marlene	One thing we have not identified, yet is a model of healthy internet usage...
16:17:31	Dr-Mike-p	Azy, a porno addict may not be addicted to heroine or StarTrek chat rooms to be sure, but there certainly are predispositions toward compulsive behavior, or antisocial behavior, no?
16:17:37	JohnSuler-m	at more narcissistic levels of functioning, the compulsion has more to do with the regulation of self cohesion
16:17:39	KimberlyYoung-P	If you want a full outline, I can point you to my web site where I have several articles posted there
16:18:10	JohnSuler-m	good point Marlene... in a nutshell.. integration and balance of online and offline living
16:18:34	G-Novitsky	Marlene--that's a good and subtle point! How does healthy Internet usage compare to, for instance, healthy telephone usage?
16:18:41	Azy	mike - i'm citing empirical research, that seeked permanent personality pattern across addictions.. Nothing was found similar!
16:19:03	Steven-Stern--P	If I give up the net entirely, is the healthy balance disturbed?
16:19:12	SteveBiggs	Kimberly, I'm not surprised to see escape as I think there is a real avoidance-depression cycle at work in any pathological over-use
16:19:23	Dr-Mike-p	Azy, I understand your point and the findings: No unidimensional "addict".
16:19:31	JohnSuler-m	YES! I think so
16:19:32	JohnGrohol	One thing you'll notice about the trends in "healthy" Internet usage is that the time spent online has increased substantially over the past 3 years...
16:19:33	G-Novitsky	Azy--were there clusters of similar patterns across several addictions?
16:19:39	Azy	right!!
16:20:30	Marlene	How can you give up the net entirely, though...An "abstinence model" is not adequate...
16:20:35	Azy	that's the whole point - no consistent personality pattern
16:20:39	Marlene	abstinence - sorry
16:20:43	Storm	I am in the process of documenting online porn and gambling addicts that had no prior history of any addiction problem until they found it online.
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16:21:25	Storm	There is opportunities for pathology online that do not exist offline.
16:21:27	JohnSuler-m	interesting Storm... what's your conclusion from that?
16:21:29	Azy	kimberly - is there a measure that uses other data, not self-report?
16:21:43	JohnSuler-m	did the internet "cause" their addiction?
16:21:44	G-Novitsky	Storm: no history of a problem, or no history of use?
16:21:54	JohnSuler-m	or simply activate something that was latent
16:22:00	KimberlyYoung-P	It might be important to note that healthcare professionals are seeing a growing number of cases related to problem use of the Internet
16:22:19	JohnSuler-m	...(you think internet addiction might be genetic?)
16:22:22	Storm	There is a simple extension of f2f pathologies to online ones in the areas of porn and gambling
16:22:43	Storm	G-Novitsky - both
16:22:47	Dr-Mike-p	Using a "withdrawal" metaphor (for those who become aggressive and irritable if they have to go away for a day or more without computer access) I can certainly see the relevance of some of the DSM criteria. And John G's point about the ascendency of net use in "normal" life is well taken. I see lots of surveys into consumer habits tapping into hour-by-hour usage patterns.
16:22:50	Danielle	Good Point Kimberly...that is a real phenomena
16:22:58	G-Novitsky	Dr. Young--but doesn't that happen with any new, pervasive enabling technology?
16:23:16	KimberlyYoung-P	In clinical settings, self-report coupled with reports of family members is generally how therapists assess the issue, in addition to full scale intakes
16:23:28	Marlene	I don't doubt it, Kimberly - incidence of schizophrenia took a sharp increase when it was first diagnosed...
16:23:35	KimberlyYoung-P	G-I am not sure what you mean?
16:23:50	JohnSuler-m	Then could we say that in the 1930s and 40s we Americans go addicted to cars, since the rate of car purchases skyrocketed?
16:24:17	G-Novitsky	Dr. Young: well, the aforementioned television and radio addictions, e.g.
16:24:25	KimberlyYoung-P	In the training seminars I conduct, I include assessment for Internet related conditions directly into intake evaluations
16:24:37	Storm	was car use associated with clinical impairment?
16:24:42	Dr-Mike-p	John S- You mean Americans *aren't* addicted to cars?? :-)
16:24:54	JohnSuler-m	lol, Michael!
16:24:59	Marlene	No, John - I am saying that we have a hand in changing the landscape of the disorder we are trying to identify...
16:25:03	Steven-Stern--P	Perhaps there is some sort of Hawthorne effect here---we are concerned about a new technology until the next one comes along.
16:25:10	G-Novitsky	Good point, Marlene: once it's defined, it's diagnosed
16:25:27	JohnSuler-m	Kimberly, you've done a lot of work in this area... where do you think this all is headed?
16:25:55	JohnSuler-m	And what about you Steven and Storm?
16:26:09	SteveBiggs	Then once it's diagnosed it tends to get overdiagnosed , a rebound effect?
16:26:41	G-Novitsky	To quote Storm, both, Steve
16:26:46	KimberlyYoung-P	Well, I try not to predict John, but obviously we need more research and clinical work in this area
16:26:50	Steven-Stern--P	I am terrible at predicting what technological innovation will capture our attention next, so I can't guess where it will go from here.
16:27:39	SteveBiggs	next addiction, cell phone?
16:27:48	JohnSuler-m	I wonder what people 100 years from now will say about these issues....
16:27:54	KimberlyYoung-P	With that said, I must leave now as I have a three hour drive ahead of me and I need to get on the road. I want to thank John Suler for inviting me to this discussion and thank everyone for a great debate. Take care
16:28:10	JohnSuler-m	... or even 20 years for that matter
16:28:26	JohnSuler-m	Bye Kimberly! Thanks for coming!!
16:28:27	Storm	Thanks Kimberly
16:28:31	Marlene	Before you go Kimberly, I'd like to ask the group a question...
16:28:43	Azy	I still think we all give too much attention (and spend energy) on "Internet addiction(s)" and ignore other, very important negative Net behaviors. I hope we open some new directions now...
16:28:52	JohnSuler-m	Another issue down the road... I think... is how powerful, very immersive VR environments will affect people.
16:29:11	Marlene	Would anyone mind if I reprinted some of the chat material presented here in an article in my School Newspaper?
16:29:11	Azy	thanks kimberly
16:29:32	G-Novitsky	I agree with you, Azy
16:29:39	JohnSuler-m	Marlene, contact Gil Levin about that
16:29:51	Marlene	I will, thanks...
16:29:57	JohnSuler-m	yes, Azy
16:29:58	Dr-Mike-p	Well, 100 yrs from now we'll have generations of people whose brains have been bombarded with 800 MHz of radio waves for extensive time periods. Maybe those that live will glow.... I do see cell-phone use as "addictive", big-time. But is it *good* to be communicative while driving a car or attending a show? Ciao, Kimberly!
16:30:03	Danielle	I also agree AZY
16:30:08	G-Novitsky	John, I think it will recall the discussions of Internet addiction
16:30:36	Azy	G. - maybe we discuss this more thoroughly in the CaseList group
16:30:40	JohnSuler-m	I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING... IF YOU'D LIKE TO HANG AROUND AND CHAT FOR A WHILE, PLEASE DO
16:30:43	Marlene	I so agree, Dr. Mike - I really wonder about the effect that will have on us...
16:30:49	G-Novitsky	sounds good, Azy
16:31:02	Storm	I'd like to post one self report of net addiction just to remind us of the personal side of this.
16:31:14	Marlene	Case List group?
16:31:14	JohnGrohol	I think that until we start better defining and agreeing upon the definitions of these "behavioral addictions," you're going to continue to see the types of divisions and issues plaguing this discussion.
16:31:21	Gil-Levin	Thanks John for the great job in guiding the discussion!
16:31:27	G-Novitsky	Thanks for arranging this, John
16:31:35	Steven-Stern--P	Thanks for having me, it was a pleasure
16:31:43	Storm	" i'm not an irc junkie or a shop-a-holic online. i don't play video"
16:31:55	JohnSuler-m	I think these future VR environments will be very powerful... so in terms of "addiction"... we ain't seen nuthin' yet
16:31:56	Storm	rather than lose my job because of the time i spend online, i've just
16:31:58	JohnGrohol	And that as researchers, we have to remember that just because two events occur at or near the same period of time, correlation does not equal causation.
16:32:05	Azy	thank you John for handling the group!'
16:32:06	Storm	between work and home i probably spend 80-100 hours a week online. i
16:32:06	JohnSuler-m	Thanks Steven!!
16:32:16	Storm	i got online in sept. 94. i broke up with my girlfriend in jan. 95. i
16:32:32	Storm	end quote
16:32:45	Azy	I'll never forget this comment, JohnG
16:32:58	Storm	i haven't had a girlfriend since then. i spend every waking second
16:33:09	Storm	now end quote :-)
16:33:18	JohnGrohol	I wish other researchers would keep that in the forefront of their minds!
16:33:26	Dr-Mike-p	John G- I don't feel "plagued"! :-) Absolutely it's worthwhile to try to discuss and come to consensus on terms and phenomena. But ultimately I think John S. nailed it by saying that as clinicians we often deal case by case. Thanks ,Johns S and G!
16:34:25	JohnGrohol	Nice chat... take care all.
16:34:35	G-Novitsky	You too, JohnG
16:34:40	JohnSuler-m	OK... everyone here who is internet addicted raise your hand!
16:34:47	JohnSuler-m	Bye John
16:34:51	Azy	OK, John, with NO CAUSAL effects, I'm signing off now. It's very late here...
16:34:52	Dr-Mike-p	OK, guess the party is over...going back to my Sunday addiction of reading the newspaper! :-) Take care, all. Enjoyed it.
16:35:12	G-Novitsky	Whose definition are we using, JohnS., mine or my husband's?
16:35:16	SteveBiggs	Well, thank you John S. for organizing another interesting online discussion. I look forward to the next.
16:35:26	JohnSuler-m	really... do you ever think you spend too much time online...
16:35:31	SteveBiggs	ciao
16:35:33	JohnSuler-m	bye Azy...thanks for coming
16:35:34	G-Novitsky	good night, Azy
16:35:49	Azy	bye all
16:35:56	Marlene	I really try to structure my use...
16:36:22	JohnSuler-m	if you think you do... exploring those subjective experiences will tell you a lot about excessive internet use
16:36:29	Marlene	It has become an essential tool, I must say...From PsychInfo Online to maintaining my band's webpage...
16:36:56	G-Novitsky	I make a point of allowing time for enjoyable and/or essential r/l activities
16:37:01	JohnSuler-m	as a psychoanalytically trained clinician, I think exploring those kinds of personal issues go a very long way
16:37:47	JohnSuler-m	... and it helps a great deal in clearing away the filters through which we see our own research
16:38:12	G-Novitsky	True
16:38:30	G-Novitsky	Thank you again, and goodbye
16:38:52	JohnSuler-m	with that thought, I too must say good bye!
16:39:04	JohnSuler-m	Thank you all for coming!
16:39:31	Storm	thank you for having us
16:39:49	Danielle	Thank you
16:41:39	Marlene	We're dropping like flies...
16:42:19	Storm	i have to go. see ya
16:43:15	Marlene	How many are still here? i can't tell with the frames...
16:44:47	JOIN	landry-sarah has joined.
16:44:48	stephanie	i see 6 people. Marlene
16:45:57	Marlene	what do you all think?
16:47:51	Marlene	I'm a grad student in NYC researching internet addiction for my dissertation..
16:48:45	stephanie	what's your exact topic, Marlene?
16:49:22	Marlene	Contextualizing internet addiction...
16:50:29	Marlene	I am working on a survey to determine the role of the internet in people's lives..
16:51:12	stephanie	do you do the survey online or offline?
16:51:39	landry-sarah	Hi marlene I would just like to now how to deal with a my son's mother it does
16:51:45	Marlene	The pilot is offline, then it'll go on the web along with offline ...
16:52:18	Marlene	At first, you have to call people back multiple times...
16:52:31	stephanie	so, I'm a volunteer to participate then :-)
16:53:18	Marlene	Thanks - I could use the feedback...There are so many minute issues involved in survey writing and validation...
16:54:09	Marlene	Sarah? I'm not sure I understand your question.
16:54:19	Marlene	What are you studying, Stephanie?
16:56:46	stephanie	work & organizational psychologies, and mass media science
16:57:24	Marlene	Interesting - Internet use is a big issue in the workplace.

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