Behavior OnLine - Chat Transcript July 25, 1999

CHAT TRANSCRIPT - July 25, 1999

15:11:26	JohnSuler	BEHAVIOR ONLINE WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME YOU TO THIS PANEL DISCUSSION ABOUT ONLINE ROMANCES.....THANK YOU FOR COMING!
15:11:47	JohnSuler	Our panelists include Andrea Baker, Robin Hamman, Storm King, Cleo Odzer, Carol Parker, Peg Roberts, "Mystic Warrior", and Kimberly Young..... with me as the moderator. Unfortunately, Debb Arck and John Grohol could not be here today.
15:12:07	JohnSuler	You can read about the panelists' work and backgrounds in the program for this meeting, which is located at http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/psycyber/bolchatrom.html (you should be able to click on that url and it will activate your browser)
15:12:26	JohnSuler	As moderator, I will pose a series of questions to the panel. During the panel discussion, please refrain from sending public messages. You are welcome to "whisper" (send private messages) to other attendees, but keep in mind that if you whisper to someone
15:12:54	JohnSuler	if you whisper to someone, the chat program places a series of dots next to your name. You will not see the dots, but other people will.
15:13:21	JohnSuler	After the panel discussion, we'll open the meeting to questions and comments from the audience. At that time, indicate that you want to speak by typing the message "hand." I'll call on people in the order of hands raised.
15:13:33	JohnSuler	We'll take each question one at a time and give the panel a chance to respond before moving on to the next one.
15:14:03	JohnSuler	OK. Here's a question to the panel to open our discussion.......
15:14:21	JohnSuler	hat kinds of people tend to become involved in online romances?
15:14:45	JohnSuler	WHAT kinds of people... (that is)
15:15:02	andrea-baker	people who have computers, who can type, for starters.:)
15:15:25	JohnSuler	LOL, Andrea... who can type FAST!
15:15:28	Peg	i don't feel it's limited to any particular 'type' of person, I've seen people from all walks of life involved
15:15:40	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	hmmm. kind of people? That's hard. If you "LIVE" in cyberspace you are sure to become involved. Some just visit and do email.
15:16:15	M-W	i tend to think that people first get involved out of natural curiosity, then remain involved as a catheses to the external sensationalism
15:16:20	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I do know some people who have not become involved (very few) but I couldn't say why they don't
15:16:45	M-W	an "addictive personality" per se
15:16:47	Kimberly	I have noticed a variety of factors influence who is most likely to involve themselves in online romance, as the internet becomes an accessible means to freely meet others, it seems that anyone looking of it can find it
15:16:59	andrea-baker	Aha, M-W. translation, pul-ease.
15:17:20	Robin-Hamman	I feel that we're putting false boundaries between online and offline. The people who get involved in relationships online aren't, in my view, any different than anyone else who gets involved in a relationship.
15:17:31	storm	Anyone may become involved in an online romance. I have heard of many people who were very surprised to find themselves involved in an online romance - they were not looking for one.
15:17:31	andrea-baker	which factors, Kimberly?
15:17:36	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	But the majority do feel that pull toward a "link" to someone who is just a name on the screen and that can grow (and WAY out of proportion, don't I know it)
15:17:53	M-W	it seems to me that some (most) are "looking for something", and they "think" they find it here
15:18:19	andrea-baker	I think people more interested in mind than the physical might have tendencies to be more involved.
15:18:24	Peg	some do actually find it here :)
15:18:34	JohnSuler	interesting, Andrea
15:18:45	M-W	yet what they typically find is merely the projection of their own inner ideal images
15:18:53	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I found most newcomers are surprised by the intensity that can develop
15:19:03	Kimberly	In one study I utilized the 16PF and the BDI on a group of heavy Internet users and interestingly found those with prior histories of clinical depression, low self-esteem, high abstract ability, open-minded individuals, and non-conformist individuals were more likely to engage in online romance
15:19:03	M-W	yes Peg, some do...not many...but some
15:19:14	andrea-baker	Is anyone here currently involved with someone they first met online?
15:19:32	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I don't quite agree Andrea. I like the physical a whole lot too.
15:19:33	M-W	that collaborates my "theory" Kimberely
15:19:38	storm	People that are susceptible to projections get involved in online romance a lot
15:19:40	Peg	yes andrea
15:19:44	Robin-Hamman	when I did research on cybersex chat participants back in 1996, I found that all of my respondents were "socially isolated" in a way which made it difficult for them to find sexual partners. I don't think that users who are finding romance online today are
15:19:49	JohnSuler	that's an interesting collection of people, Kimberly!
15:19:56	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	bingo MW, it's 95% projection
15:19:56	Linc	I was involved for a year and a half with someone I met online
15:20:09	LullySing	What do you mean by currently involved...R/t or C/t
15:20:20	storm	i strongly agree with Dr--Cleo-Odzer: I found most newcomers are surprised by the intensity that can develop
15:20:26	Dianne	I was married to the man I met online just last week.
15:20:34	Kevin	I separated from a woman I met online after 3 months marriage
15:20:42	Peg	congrats dianne!
15:20:46	JohnSuler	What accounts for that intensity?
15:21:03	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	you think some people are NOT susceptible to projections, Storm?
15:21:14	Linc	there seems, in my eyes, to be a very high percentage of unhappily married females looking for more
15:21:16	Cyndia	yes, Andrea - I have had/am having such an experience; has been mostly positive
15:21:18	JohnSuler	Audience: Please save questions and comments for the end.
15:21:20	storm	good point ;-)
15:21:21	julia	i am involved now in an online romance, and married not with him
15:21:43	JohnSuler	(I project all the time... it's one of my favorite pastimes!)
15:21:46	M-W	i believe that the "intensity" stems from the fact that our habitual barriers and defenses are lowered and also that the anonymity imbues one with a certain control and power
15:21:59	Peg	i've been romantically involved with this person since november of 97 and have been with him since may of 98
15:22:16	julia	and excuse infidelity, thinking of this as a virtual world, but i do feel not virtual things
15:22:21	storm	the intensity is due, in part, to the persons 'filling in the missing pieces with their own projected stuff - they have found Mr or Mrs Right
15:22:27	M-W	i make a project out of projecting
15:22:30	Kimberly	the anonymity coupled with writing is less confrontational than ftf discussions allowing people to feel more comfortable revealing parts of themselves
15:22:40	Kimberly	perhaps making it a more intense interaction
15:22:46	storm	i strongly agree with M-W: i believe that the "intensity"...
15:22:54	Robin-Hamman	I agree with you there M-W. The intensity is partially because we can access our desires more easily in the perceived safety of cyberspace.
15:23:09	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I think the intensity is also partly due to the fact that it's a direct link to our minds, no checks on ... I hate to say.. reality
15:23:27	andrea-baker	yes, Cleo....
15:23:58	JohnSuler	We seem to be touching on another important question...
15:24:01	M-W	also, it is vastly interesting to note that the suckling infant plays with fingers on mothers breast while vacuously staring about...much like the online chatter.....there is some "regressive behaviors" being evoked
15:24:09	julia	its like writing all your feelings on a private diary
15:24:13	JohnSuler	How do you know when online romances are healthy, and not healthy?
15:24:19	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	we create the fantasy of our imagined ideal person and without meeting in person, that image remains
15:24:49	andrea-baker	okay, the honesty factor....
15:25:01	Robin-Hamman	julia, but that diary is always very public - it's actually very dangerous to expose ourselves so eagerly online.
15:25:29	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	not healthy when they mess up your rl relationships
15:25:30	julia	yes, i know, but meaning that you give yourself much more than f2f
15:26:05	George-O-Brien	My only experience is with clients that meet people. The clients are Domestic Violence Perpetrators or Addicts. Almost all (maybe all) were recreating other disasterous relationships in their lives. It seems they knew what they really didn't want and did it again. It was useful in therapy, the clients spent time, money and were broken hearted, but they learned a lot about themselves. It was easy to "externalize" and look at these Relationships after the women arrived here. (Denver).
15:26:05	storm	healthy is honest and not a strain on one's emotional budget. Unhealthy is the opposite
15:26:06	M-W	healthy is such a fleeting and ill-defined word....I think MOST online relationships are steeped in a "co-dependency"..however, so long as each succeeds in securing what they need from the other...it then outwardly appears healthy
15:26:13	Peg	i've experienced both healthy and unhealthy... i didn't recognize the unhealthy relationship as that for some time. It felt 'needy' I needed and he was there to rescue every damsel in distress
15:26:31	Robin-Hamman	cleo, I don't actually distinguish between my online and offline relationships. It's all a part of a whole: MY LIFE.
15:26:37	Kimberly	In my work, it seems for singles the unhealthy aspects of online romance appears to be the potential deception that the other person isn't who they say they are and the high expectations built up for the other person
15:26:52	Robin-Hamman	So I don't value online friendships any more or any less than offline ones.
15:27:00	Peg	the relationship i'm involved in now is the most healthy one i've had in my adult life. that's saying a lot since i'm in my late 30 something :)
15:27:01	Kimberly	for married couples, cyberaffairs are the most unhealthy aspect
15:27:04	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	very healthy when you can learn about your personal quirks and "irrational" responses (like when I go beserk over a misperceived insult)
15:27:33	julia	why kimberly?
15:28:02	andrea-baker	Right, Kimberly, the unrealistic expectations....
15:28:17	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Yes Robin, it is MY LIFE but I know better than to try to take a net romance to rl
15:28:20	storm	Robin-Hamman - most people do devalue online relationships over f2f ones - until they fall in love online ;-)
15:28:26	Kimberly	julia, I am not sure what your why is to - I think you mean on cyberaffairs.
15:28:30	M-W	Kimberely...i do not believe the "deceptions" hurt....i think the real culprit is ourselves...being susceptible to "taking in" and actually believing "other"..when there is no evidence that such a person even exists
15:28:43	andrea-baker	You wouldn't again, Dr. Cleo?
15:28:57	julia	well, now i am all messed up with my online and offline relationship
15:29:26	Kimberly	Yes, i acknowledged both aspects - deception and high expectations
15:29:27	Kevin	I agree with M-W I found the deceit was more of a recipient's interpretation
15:29:33	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I never have andrea. I keep them separate cuz I know my net bf is really mostly made up in my mind.
15:29:36	julia	ok. sorry, please
15:29:37	JohnSuler	Are people "honest" in a healthy relationship, and "lying" in an unhealthy one?
15:29:37	storm	I believe that love affairs and flame wars happen online at a higher rate then offline due to the amount of projections and misunderstandings inherent in text-based relationships
15:29:47	M-W	if we ourselves were not "needy", and our vision clear..then our powers of discernment and our need to even "search" for other are diminished
15:30:04	JohnSuler	... and does cyberspace allow for greater honesty and deception?
15:30:20	M-W	in what context John?
15:30:27	storm	yes
15:30:40	Robin-Hamman	more honesty... I can track your IP number down! : )
15:30:49	M-W	it allows for both...it is a two-edged sword (IMHO)
15:30:49	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	That's why I have trouble with the "deception" people are talking about. The net offers the freedom to be any gender or age you want. The rules of rl don't apply the same.
15:31:19	Kevin	is there a tendency to not follow the same rules we would apply to a f2f relationship. Do we adjust our boundaries
15:31:22	andrea-baker	Yes in that people may share more in shorter time frames, on the honesty part, John
15:31:28	Robin-Hamman	people have always tried to make a good impression on others, especially those they have a romantic interest in.
15:31:40	M-W	the problem with online it seems to me is this...one tries to take a totally different paradigm and fit it into a real life model
15:31:51	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	honesty, John, yes because I can say things I would be embarrassed to reveal in rl. But I don't subscribe to the deception thing.
15:31:55	andrea-baker	Robin, don't you dare! :)
15:32:08	Robin-Hamman	I don't feel that online people do anything that's really different to what they do in a bar: highlight the good.
15:32:46	JohnSuler	Are there stages in an online relationship?
15:32:48	Peg	cyberspace can allow for either john, it depends on how each individual reacts and interacts with cyberspace. Some feel safer in being more honest while others feel safer embellishing the truth
15:33:04	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Kevin, rl and vr are two different things. we can't try to squeeze the same rules from one to the other. That's when people fall into the trap of feeling "deceived"
15:33:18	M-W	yes...but one cannot hide all the perceptual evidence and sensory evidence in a bar....they can online
15:33:23	Robin-Hamman	I certainly downplay my weaknesses online, but I also do it offline at about the same frequency if not more.
15:33:38	Ulfy	;-)
15:33:50	Peg	i think that's unique to each relationship john.
15:33:56	andrea-baker	Yeah and we can hide our zits too.
15:33:57	julia	no, linc
15:34:19	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	stages, John, can involve that rl meeting. that is big crossroad for those who do that.
15:34:23	JohnSuler	I guess there's at least one distinct stage or transition point... when the people meet in person
15:34:34	Ulfy	I'll come back later
15:34:42	Kimberly	As research has found, anonymity certainly allows for greater deception and deviant behavior (e.g., Zimbardo's studies) but at the same time, I have found that shy or introverted people feel more honest when engaged in online discussions
15:34:47	storm	Stages? attention to attraction to arousal... I guess
15:35:14	andrea-baker	yeah the first Meet!
15:35:28	andrea-baker	yes, me too Kimberly.
15:35:34	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	another stage is taking it to phone calls -- bad move. REAL expensive (I learned that lesson only once and never again)
15:35:43	Peg	transition is definitely a good term for meeting face to face
15:35:58	Kevin	Kimberly You say 'Feel" more honest. Is this opposed to being more honest
15:36:19	Robin-Hamman	cleo, phone calls are great if the relationship is ready for it. ; )
15:36:24	JohnSuler	Why do you think it's a good term, Peg.
15:36:46	Yannick	phone calls? what about netmeeting and the likes? does that qualify as RL?
15:36:48	Robin-Hamman	face to face can be really great for some users as well.
15:37:01	Kevin	My experience is that I felt I was more open and honest yet in hindsight I wasn't. This was not intentional
15:37:17	Robin-Hamman	I think what we are seeing is that online relationships, like all relationships, can be experienced in many many different ways.
15:37:46	Peg	well, for me, meeting face to face changed the relationship and in a positive way. When you spend time with that person physically then go back to online, it just isn't the same.
15:37:59	Kimberly	Kevin, I suppose I meant that my clients feel more comfortable talking online than they do in ftf discussions (typically reporting that they are more open and revealing when online)
15:38:04	M-W	we seem to discount the importance of our habitual "judgements" brought forth by our perceptual preferences....and when confronted with real life...these things then do become an issue
15:38:13	Peg	for me that was a very good transition
15:38:17	storm	Peg - This is because all the missing details are now filled in
15:38:19	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	uh-hoh
15:38:35	JohnSuler	That's interesting, Peg. How does it change?
15:38:44	andrea-baker	How is it different for you, Peg?
15:39:17	M-W	nor, online, can we glean our social compatibility issues....
15:40:07	andrea-baker	we can't? why not? What's social compatibility, M-W?
15:40:09	Peg	well, when dan came to montana to meet me, spent the week and went home... when we met online it was awkward. We missed each other terribly for one.
15:40:19	Kevin	if a person feels they can be more open and relaxed online is this not because the net itself is a substitute for whatever barriers they have in real life
15:40:46	Peg	there was that longing for the other, the intimacy just wasn't the same online after meeting either :)
15:41:03	M-W	habitual judgements related to our senses....touch, sight, taste, smell, hearing...etc etc...and how they form a backdrop to our living)
15:41:34	andrea-baker	How did the intimacy change, P? after meeting irl.
15:41:45	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Yeah Peg, switching to rl changes it. They are really two separate things. vr romance and rl one.
15:41:57	Peg	it just felt empty online after sharing irl
15:42:07	storm	Text that is conversational in nature, as it exists on the Internet today, is a relatively new phenomenon and these communications may appear colder and more impersonal than the author intended. Most people have the impression that written text represents the well thought out and carefully edited views of the writer; however, on-line communications are often the product of someone "typing off the top of his or her head". The reader may in turn interpret these messages as being far more representative
15:42:12	storm	of the writer's firmly held thoughts and feelings than is warranted.
15:42:24	Peg	we both knew we wanted to keep our relationship at the rl level
15:42:27	M-W	a common phrase i hear online is "looks do not matter"...well, online they do not...but, we all have our preferences in this regard for example
15:43:23	Peg	true m-w, but if one is honest up front about their physical appearance that isn't an issue if you meet
15:43:25	Robin-Hamman	looks don't matter, so do you have a pic? - I hear that all the time on AOL.
15:43:27	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Storm, I kinda disagree. I think "flames" start because people are reacting to something in their past or in their personality and not in the actual "coldness" of the text.
15:43:45	M-W	Storm...that is an interesting statement...interpretative analysis is powerful online as one "freely associates"...a perceptive person can glean a lot!
15:43:53	Kimberly	good point storm, another aspect of that is how the reader feels as he or she is reading the message, one can project feelings
15:43:56	andrea-baker	okay I have found some people can get involved online and then looks up to a point become less important. Do you agree?
15:43:56	Yannick	looks DO matter online (its just that the representation mode is different online).
15:43:58	storm	do you agree that flames and love affairs are related?
15:43:58	JohnSuler	Here's a question for the panel: If you had to give one single bit of advice to someone in an online romance, what would it be (assume the person is not married)
15:44:11	Linc	I think that the biggest letdown occurs when one has built up unreasonable expectations. It burned me big time. She thought I would be just what she wanted, even after I'd described myself very honestly. Even though we had a great time, it didn't work out as I'd hoped it would.
15:44:27	Kevin	M_W as opposed to RL encounters being physical first, our natural way of being initially attracted to someone?
15:44:49	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	right Kimberly, what looks like an insult to the hurt person makes other people reading it go "Huh?"
15:45:06	andrea-baker	Flames and love affairs? in what sense, storm?
15:45:10	M-W	it would be..."go back to reality, for the problems of reality cannot be resolved in fantasy"
15:45:42	andrea-baker	why is that Linc? physical stuff or styles or what?
15:45:48	storm	Linc: - same thing happened to me in late 1993 :-)
15:45:53	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	My advice John, would be to be aware of how the relationship is created in our own minds. and also not to mix them.
15:45:54	Peg	my advice to others is to be completely open and honest with that person when or if your relationship has the potential to blossom into a real life meeting
15:45:59	M-W	end your confusion first...act second...:-)
15:46:16	Robin-Hamman	advice... Be careful, learn as much as you can about your partner, question your feelings always... all the advice I would give anyone who is involved romantically with another person.
15:46:28	storm	andrea-baker: - they both involve projection and a large mood congruent effect
15:46:35	andrea-baker	Well-said Peg. And to take a bit of time to know the person.
15:46:55	Peg	yes andrea, definitely don't rush things
15:47:00	Linc	physical stuff I guess, even though we explored every physical avenue possible...she was married on top of it, but it didn't stop either of us from getting together twice. It has just ended very unhappily for me.
15:47:02	JohnSuler	Here's another question: What would that single bit of advice be if the person WAS married (or in a longterm relationship)?
15:47:03	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Another piece of advice is to LEARN about the self from how we react online. what makes us angry, what makes us attracted
15:47:36	Kevin	A lie of any sort to any person you meet will always come back to bite you especially if that encounter evolves into a relationship
15:47:44	Peg	don't do it!! i've seen online relationships destroy more marriages.
15:47:58	M-W	the same John...."look at yourself first, stop trying to fix the internal via escaping into the external"
15:48:11	andrea-baker	perhaps it might be best to resolve the marital problems first, one way or the other.
15:48:30	Robin-Hamman	advice (married)... take a step back and try to figure out what is wrong with your current relationship. You should definitely try to fix it before you start ANY new relationship, online or off.
15:48:46	Kimberly	for married persons, online romance shouldn't be rationalized as harmless flirtations as they have significant real life consequences
15:49:08	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Well, I don't mix rl and vr. So I don't intend to meet my cyber bf. Oh, and the biggest advice is don't believe descriptions of age, appearance, or even gender, and certainly not marital status
15:49:22	julia	i think its easier to say stop it when you are married, but you don't want to stop it.
15:49:29	Linc	my piece of advice, from being deeply involved with a married woman for a year and a half, is don't do it. You cannot trust the married person. After all, they're cheating, whether it be for real (in my case), or in a cyber relationship only, it's still cheating.
15:49:54	andrea-baker	Cleo, how about in a very honest VC, can we not believe people then, with checks on the info?
15:49:58	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	right, Kimberly, I've heard of so many marriages broken because of an online romance
15:50:29	M-W	You are a perfect example of "healthy" online chatting Cleo...keeping it circumscribed within its own parameters
15:50:37	George-O-Brien	Single piece of advice: One suggestion for these online (or offline relationships), have a frank discussion about what you want out of the relationship. I knew one lady that thought I was about to retire and since I speak Spanish I would be useful in Mexico - where she intended to go. I'm not near retirement and I don't particularly like Mexico, and that ended that. She did answer her email promptly and once we were discussing things face to face we communicated rapidly and went our separate ways.
15:50:38	Yannick	cheating has a different meaning in cyberspace (because the environment is different).
15:50:57	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	but, andrea, we can't believe our OWN perceptions either. We believe what we want to believe and read into things what we want to hear.
15:51:01	Kevin	Dr Cleo-Odzer I believe it is now the third highest reason given for divorce in US
15:51:15	storm	I do not thing cheating has a different meaning in cyberspace
15:51:39	JohnSuler	OK. LET'S HAVE THE PANEL RESPOND TO QUESTIONS/COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE. IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK TYPE "HAND". I'LL CALL ON PEOPLE IN THE ORDER OF HANDS RAISED.
15:51:39	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	sorry, I meant that to andrea not Kimberly (the last)
15:51:48	stephanie	hand
15:51:56	John-Grohol	Extramarital affairs are extramarital affairs, no matter what technologies one uses to carry them out.
15:51:59	LullySing	hand
15:52:06	Kimberly	From the divorce lawyers I have consulted with, it seems that cyberaffairs are fast becoming a major reason for divorce in the states
15:52:08	Linc	yes, it does Yannick. Some say it's harmless, but in my case, cyber cheating on her part led to us cheating for real. the sexual temptations and situations we devised in cyber turned real, and we fulfilled all of them.
15:52:08	M-W	"cheating" would mean that if you cannot be honest about your actions and hide them from your spouse....then you are indeed "cheating"
15:52:12	azy	hand
15:52:17	JohnSuler	Stephanie... go ahead.
15:52:21	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	right Kevin, people have to learn that they are CREATING the relationship in their minds. it's all still so new.
15:52:22	skurry	hand
15:52:31	storm	Kevin: this is because "If all computer-mediated communication systems can be said to have one single unifying effect upon human behavior it is that usage tends to cause the user to become less inhibited." (Reid, 94).
15:52:35	M-W	If on the other hand...you say..."i am going online for cybersex"..then you are NOT cheating
15:52:38	Kevin	My group's original intention was to help those who were involved in an online relationship Half of my clients are the spouses who have little understanding of the Internet
15:52:43	Robin-Sircus	Hand
15:52:44	stephanie	is it true that most f2f-meetings are disappointing for online lovers? mine was wonderful :)
15:53:28	julia	i consider that cheating in rl or on line is different, if it were the same i will meet that person for real
15:53:48	storm	M-W: If on the other hand ????
15:53:52	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	but it's hard to keep it only sexual MW (sometimes)
15:54:05	JohnSuler	responses to Stephanie's question??
15:54:13	Francisco-Lopez	hand
15:54:19	andrea-baker	Stephanie, I think it all depends on what happened beforehand.
15:54:20	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I believe there is such a thing as "emotional" adultery
15:54:23	Peg	it certainly wasn't true in my case :)
15:54:25	M-W	storm....i finished that sentence but the "lag" perhaps prevents a congruent thread....(not sure how to respond to you here)
15:54:25	Linc	for me, the face to face was wonderful. It was what came between our two meetings, and since the last one, that's been miserable
15:54:26	psych	Hand
15:54:47	Robin-Hamman	stephanie, there are bound to be people who are disappointed when meeting offline after meeting online first. Sure.
15:54:55	storm	stephanie - I know of no empirical data - but reports are that more do NOT work out then do work out
15:55:06	andrea-baker	What happened Linc....was that the married person?
15:55:08	M-W	yes Cleo, i am sure (although i am a cyber angel and can only reflect upon what you must be saying) :-)
15:55:31	Linc	yes, Andrea, it was
15:55:34	JohnSuler	LULLYSING... GO AHEAD WITH YOUR QUESTION/COMMENT
15:55:38	stephanie	yes, storm, that's what i heard too
15:55:50	Shar	hand
15:56:13	andrea-baker	(I think John is shouting now.) Hi, Lullysing.
15:56:36	julia	hand
15:56:52	JohnSuler	(forgive my caps... tryin' to keep the order!!)
15:56:56	andrea-baker	Is psych still here with question?
15:57:03	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	my meeting with a cyber bf was disappointing because it broke the fantasy (but, funny, the fantasy can come back after a while online again)
15:57:06	JohnSuler	LULLYSING?
15:57:16	LullySing	What do you think of Cybermarriages? Are they ways to portray things that cannot happen in real life? And what about cyberchildren? Do you think roleplaying CAN be pushed too far?
15:57:47	Kevin	hand
15:58:07	LullySing	fingers aching...;/
15:58:16	Peg	personally i wouldn't go into a 'cyber' marriage or have any 'cyber' kidlets. that would be too much out of touch with reality for me.
15:58:29	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I think cyber marriages are wonderful (though all the ones I've been to ended in divorce but who cares, it's different. it's great for what it is)
15:58:53	andrea-baker	Linc, that's really sad.
15:59:07	M-W	going to such extremes involves one more neurotically into the cyber social microcosm and thus they tend to eschew life more.
15:59:24	Robin-Hamman	Wow. I always thought that Cyber-Vows were something devised by the marketing people at AOL. I suppose they could be a joke or they could be a show of true devotion, depending on the couple.
15:59:38	storm	Role playing is easy to get caught up in. In can lead to pathological Internet use, for some, more easier than other aspects on text-based relating
15:59:41	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I'm on a MOO now where you can get pregnant and have a child. I'm considering doing that with by cyber bf (but HE's the one who's gonna get pregnant)
16:00:00	JohnSuler	AZY... GO AHEAD WITH YOUR QUESTION
16:00:28	azy	I'd like to share with the group what happened here (Israel) last night. A man burned to death his wife and 2 little kids because she was having an online affair. The poor woman was stupid enough to leave a chat printout on her desk. Lesson: no lesson... some people are nuts, online or offline, in cyberspace or rl world. Cyber romance just intensifies everything, speed, power... it's a question of quantity more than quality, in my mind...
16:00:35	andrea-baker	HE is??? uh-huh! and then who will take care of the baby?
16:00:42	Peg	(although with cyber kids you don't get the ulcers you can when they become teens :) )
16:01:00	storm	wow thanks for sharing this
16:01:05	Kimberly	I think the question of how healthy or appropriate cybermarriages/kids/etc depends upon the age and background of the users and how much it impacts their ability to carry out intimate offline relationships
16:01:25	psych	hand
16:01:32	Peg	agreed kimberly
16:01:33	JohnSuler	yikes, Azy!
16:01:41	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	it's new azy. people don't understand the dynamics of how strong net feelings are yet. And how to deal with them.
16:01:50	George-O-Brien	hand
16:01:53	M-W	does cyber divorce means a woman gets her ISP bill paid until the offspring reaches the age of 18?
16:02:03	storm	azy - "quantity more than quality" do you mean the ability to have multiple cyber-affairs
16:02:04	Peg	the sad thing is many don't realize what is and is not appropriate for them
16:02:26	andrea-baker	I think that's only fair, M-W. LOL
16:02:34	JohnSuler	SKURRY.... YOU'RE NEXT... GO AHEAD WITH YOUR QUESTION
16:02:40	skurry	(I am married to a person I met on the net - me UK, her US) A comment ..A large proportion of people who are online and frequent chat rooms are looking for excitement or an escape from a dysfunctional real life relationship. There is ideally a progression that goes - chat, email, phone, f2f... some people do not have the opportunity to indulge all of these, but there will probably be a psychometric test that will identify those prepared to go "all the way"
16:02:50	LullySing	Cliche N-W...Baaaaaddd cliche ...
16:02:55	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	andrea, that is where the fantasy potential is great. HE will be pregnant and he will have primary responsibility for the baby.
16:02:57	azy	I mean net relationships intensify feelings... that's quantity, not quality
16:02:59	Kevin	On my chat channel we experimented with a contrived cyber romance. What we found was the involvement of chatters reached fever pitch. It appeared that this romance was having a similar effect that a romance novel has
16:03:08	storm	i strongly agree with Dr--Cleo-Odzer: it's new azy.... about not understanding how to deal with the intense feelings when attracted online
16:03:17	M-W	<hangs head, shuffles feet>......sowwy :-)
16:05:03	storm	Who would have predicted the resurgence in amateur erotic writing ? ;-)
16:05:11	JohnSuler	it IS an interesting progression, Skurry, and there probably are features of the relationship and predictors at each stage
16:05:15	azy	net relationships are characterized by having less inhibitions.. This intensifies all kind of reactions...
16:06:09	M-W	skurry (reading back in the chat), it still seems to me that those that get heavily involved in chat have the same etiological drives and defense mechanisms of any "addict"
16:06:10	JohnSuler	ROBIN-SIRCUS.... GO AHEAD
16:06:43	Robin-Sircus	I think people do not want to realize that it is our consciousness that goes on line and it is the same consciousness that is with us offline. Cleo said for us to learn by our online reactions and I think this is part of the key to what online life is offering, a new chance to look at ourselves, and at the heart of all infidelities are lies it matters not how or where those lies can kill as we just heard in Israel
16:07:33	M-W	excellent Robin...if only most had that same "internal" view and not looking to be rescued by the "external"
16:07:40	andrea-baker	agree, Skurry but that's why I think it helps to meet in "common-interest" spaces skurry.
16:08:14	M-W	precisely Skurry!
16:08:20	Peg	robin, you hit upon something i feel that is important.... some people take very much for granted that the person on the other side of that screen has feelings and can be hurt as well as the joyous feelings that can occur.
16:08:49	Robin-Sircus	I read when I first came on line that making friends in cyber space was an excellent idea but romance well be careful
16:09:20	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Yes, people have to learn that the FEELINGS of the other person are very real. nothing virtual about it
16:09:20	JohnSuler	THERE ARE STILL HALF A DOZEN PEOPLE WITH THEIR HANDS RAISED... AND I'D LIKE TO THANK THEM FOR BEING SO PATIENT... WHY DON'T WE OPEN UP THE DISCUSSION TO "FREE FORM" STYLE... TYPE AWAY! (I like this part myself)
16:09:29	andrea-baker	Peg, you mean some people don't realize people online can be hurt?
16:09:39	andrea-baker	Wowzer!!!
16:09:47	Shar	I see no difference between RL vs. cyber relationships -- in both there can be delusions, deceit, & disappointment -- but also could be self-growth, enhanced emotional openness and satisfaction -- would you agree?
16:09:49	psych	sorry for the 2 hands! Just want to say this panel has been terrific. Definitely I believe there is something important about balancing vr with rl. It's been illuminating to hear how relationships online really do mirror them offline. The point about being aware of how we communicate, and sometimes delude ourselves is well taken, as is Kimberly's point that unlike romantic novels, "online romance" for spouses can have profound real consequences. Great Panel!
16:10:01	Peg	yes andrea :)
16:10:22	Peg	i agree shar
16:10:43	Alan	Thank you - I wanted to add that the bandwidth of online relationships is enormous - that there are as many varieties as offline, and both real and virtual interpenetrate in a wide spectrum - so I think there aren't any 'shoulds' or phenomenologies that can be applied across the board...
16:10:45	Robin-Hamman	Shar, I agree with you totally. Online relationships, like offline ones, have problems and pitfalls - but can also be enormously successful and fulfilling!
16:10:52	andrea-baker	Thank you so much Psych.
16:11:02	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	yes Shar, look how many times we see on Court TV that apparently they never really "knew" the person (even husbands, kids, parents)
16:11:34	Kimberly	thank you, psych and for John Suler for coordinating a great panel discussion!
16:11:46	julia	i am married, i am having a cyberaffair, i daydream of him, i cant stop it, i don't want to destroy my life, uff its a mess, and i am really confused
16:11:59	andrea-baker	I do think the sequencing of communication is different though for VR and that can affect the type of relationship developed or the course of it.
16:12:09	Robin-Hamman	and, may I add... I think that most romantic relationships being conducted online aren't based in chat spaces or message boards... they are people who see each other across the office everyday taking a moment to type a flirtatious email and send it across
16:12:19	Kevin	shar providing the person wants self growth etc. If online relationships enhance one's honesty then it would also have the same affect one's dishonesty
16:12:28	Robin-Sircus	Maybe online relationships are like a training ground for when we are "dead" meaning without bodies. :-)
16:12:29	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Julia, be aware that most of your cyber relationship is only a creation in your mind
16:12:34	JohnSuler	Thanks for coming, Kimberly!
16:12:39	storm	Julia - have you considered getting some professional help?
16:12:41	Billie	julia perhaps you can discuss the situation with someone?
16:12:43	Alan	But there are so many cases of people traveling continent-wide as well...
16:12:45	M-W	julia....try going OFFLINE for 2 weeks and immersing yourself in reality....and then see if the cyber lover "fades"
16:12:48	LullySing	I think that Lying/not lying is not an issue.....People lie. Don't make lying a cliche, because it does not have to be...:)
16:13:16	julia	he is married too, Linc
16:13:19	M-W	<another interesting point Robin...but really really deep>!
16:13:34	Kevin	julia like what was mentioned earlier we need to right what is wrong in our current relationship before moving on to another
16:13:42	storm	LullySing - it is easier to lie online and get away with it
16:13:58	Shar	precisely, if we are astute & good at reading people, we find what we seek
16:14:00	Robin-Sircus	People lie but they pay the price - steep price!
16:14:32	LullySing	Yes, but if the person does that, it means that the person is not completely honest at the base...
16:14:37	Billie	just as an observation over time (having been in an online relationship over 8 years) time is the key factor
16:14:41	Robin-Hamman	maybe we don't lie as much as we selectively present ourselves in a positive way.
16:14:42	M-W	it is amazing to me how much "sensationalism" is embedded into our cyber loves...but should we turn our back for but a moment...the NEED for this sensationalism soon has "other" pursuing someone else.....Test this Julia
16:14:49	JohnSuler	50 years from now, do you think people will agree that the internet was good for romantic life, or bad?
16:15:13	azy	Well, we sure have invented a new taste for life, not only new technology. What's life without taste?
16:15:13	Francisco-Lopez	Let me give my opinion from Malaga (Spain): I think almost the romances in Internet have to begin with a friendship. And talking about that friendship I could say (at least for me) it is necessary to know the face of that people who's sharing so many things with you. Now I have a friend (female) respect of who I make the image I want; I have arrived to tell her "I love you". I do think in the psychoanalytical theories about transference reactions!
16:15:14	Javier-Salazar	Isn't there a contradiction here ? some people says that there is no difference between rl romances vs. vl romances, and says that there is such difference?
16:15:33	Alan	Good, because it leads to all sorts of empowerments and choices, alternatives that we have never had before.
16:15:42	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	good, John, it will be a major vehicle for self-knowledge
16:15:43	M-W	at the climbing rate of social disease John..it may be the ONLY way left!!!!! :-)
16:15:58	Robin-Hamman	The person interpreting my comment that I'm "tall and athletic" has as much responsibility as I do for the disappointment that occurs when we meet and she finds I'm tall and not particularly toned or sporty.
16:15:59	skurry	storm - I have tried to adopt a different persona online, but find I can't sustain such falsehood - don't you think online liars are the same people who are convincing RL liars?
16:16:08	ocean	i almost missed this
16:16:13	Shar	This was a great discussion - thank you
16:16:17	Peg	hmmm... it might be like it was for mail order brides john. heck how many people out here are meeting others from different countries? it allows us to reach out further than irl
16:16:28	LullySing	Julia....One of my C/t friends did it. She analyzed her life and decided that she wanted Her C/t Romance to become reality....they're together in Cali as I speak....
16:16:44	JohnSuler	It's interesting that two of the most "heated" topics are internet addiction and online romances.
16:17:08	storm	skurry - perhaps - or just people using the anonymity of the net to act out in ways they would not consider doing f2f
16:17:11	M-W	the two are intrinsically linked John, i think...
16:17:26	DrMike	I may get in trouble, but I just want to mention one thing not really highlighted: gender differences. I note the issue of men wanting photos and women wanting words. Perhaps that's why Shakespeare wrote for women?? :-)
16:17:34	Robin-Hamman	The internet will be seen, in the future, as just another communication device that has some advantages and some disadvantages to other communications tools.
16:17:36	andrea-baker	Heated, where John?
16:17:38	ocean	cyber relationships are very dangerous
16:17:38	Peg	for some reason a stigma has been placed on online romances... do you think people could misread that as internet addiction?
16:17:40	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	right skurry, it's really hard to carry off being someone else. Your emotional reactions are YOU. However, carrying off being a different age or even gender just takes a little practice
16:17:42	Robin-Sircus	Why is internet addiction so interesting and TV addiction never mentioned??
16:17:47	azy	yes, they do. addiction to love..
16:17:47	M-W	one who has no need for continual bombardment of sensationalism tends not to be so over consumed with cybersex and cyber love
16:18:15	andrea-baker	The men who don't want photos immediately are out there though.
16:18:16	Alan	You don't marry someone you see on TV.
16:18:18	storm	Robin-Hamman said "maybe we don't lie as much as we selectively present ourselves in a positive way"
16:18:37	Robin-Hamman	M-W... I think you might be on to something there. Romance online is definitely tainted by cybersex stories in the media.
16:18:37	Kevin	i have many friend who have successful and unsuccessful relationships born from the net. In most cases the success or breakdown occurred offline
16:18:37	JohnSuler	"Heated" in the sense that there is lots of media coverage of the two
16:18:45	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Bingo Robin, people are "addicted" to tv and books and other stuff
16:18:47	storm	There is a "hyperpersonal aspect" to Internet communications, a means to be more selective
16:18:52	azy	aren't we all want to love and be loved?
16:18:54	storm	presentations." (Walther & Boyd 1997 p.8)
16:19:03	M-W	well.........there are some i would like to Alan.....LOL
16:19:10	julia	My husband knows i chat, or even have cybersex, but he is not aware of this thing. he even says i am better sexually now and i am really connected to my caffair boy. For him if we don't get physical contact its ok. Well he doesn't know exactly the type of relationship i am having
16:19:12	John-Grohol	Social relationships are still social relationships, whether carried out in person, on the telephone, through writing, or online.
16:19:17	Kimberly	I have enjoyed this panel discussion, unfortunately, I must leave the group - a storm is approaching and I must shut down the computer....thank you again for having me as a part of the panel. Best regards to everyone.....
16:19:18	Robin-Sircus	I think online romance or love is such a "hot" topic because it is pointing to what is really possible in cyber space
16:19:30	Kevin	Addiction is addiction Only the substance changes
16:19:39	andrea-baker	offline determines the success or breakdown, kevin? How so do you thing?
16:19:54	andrea-baker	Bye Kimberly!
16:19:57	LullySing	I email my friend often ....she says they're soo happy....But she analyzed deeply her life before she jumped in it Julia
16:20:03	JohnSuler	Bye Kimberly. Watch out for lightning!
16:20:08	Francisco-Lopez	I think it is a bad idea to appear on-line with another personality. Why do it to ourselves when rl is so rich?
16:20:10	ocean	most online romances don't work do they
16:20:14	LullySing	sayonara Kimberly
16:20:17	M-W	yes....one can be "addicted to God or to drink"..each is just as harmful if the need is to escape "self"
16:20:24	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I agree John G. we learn from social interactions no matter where they are
16:20:28	Kevin	And it sells tabloids Robin-Sircus
16:20:33	julia	Lully Sing, how long had they been dating on line?
16:20:48	M-W	<though drink is socially a bit more destructive and harder on ye olde bod)
16:20:55	ocean	isn't
16:21:04	ocean	right
16:21:04	John-Grohol	Francisco............ Because the online world allows for easier personality experimentation than in RL.
16:21:08	storm	let me try again to make what i feel is an important point in all this
16:21:09	Kevin	ocean from what figures I can gather from my group the failure rate is around 4 times higher than RL
16:21:14	storm	There is a "hyperpersonal aspect" to Internet communications, a means to be more selective about how one presents ones self. "Another component of the (hyperpersonal) model, feedback, suggests that these heightened self-presentations and idealized perceptions magnify each other to a superordinal level, as users reciprocate each other's partial and selective presentations."
16:21:23	ocean	i was going to say that they are only fantasy
16:21:39	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	ocean, it depends on what you mean by "work." If you are looking for a rl partner, that is something else.
16:21:42	Robin-Sircus	I think our species is having a social nervous breakdown
16:22:01	Robin-Hamman	Storm, you are really on to something there.
16:22:07	John-Grohol	"Behavioral addictions" are themselves a topic of very much debate within the field, so it is not surprising that adding another supposed behavioral addiction is surrounded in controversy.
16:22:09	Francisco-Lopez	I can escape from myself, yes, but I shall ever think that I don't really want to escape so extremely... making a great fantasy which only is well in Internet...
16:22:25	Peg	not necessarily true ocean.
16:22:39	Alan	Haven't we always had such a 'nervous breakdown'? When did etiquette ever match - look at the early history of telephony...
16:22:39	ocean	i don't think i would ever risk a real relationship w/ someone online
16:22:44	Robin-Hamman	I do have to go as well, but thanks for the conversation.
16:23:11	M-W	thank you Robin for your insights
16:23:15	Billie	Am I the only one who see a time compression in online relationships?
16:23:15	Kevin	Thank you Robin
16:23:18	storm	This magnification factor of the hyperpersonal model is a theoretical formulation that could help account for the high rates of flame wars (arguments) and love affairs that happen on the net.
16:23:23	Alan	Storm, I agree with you, but wonder about 'hyper-ordinal'
16:23:28	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	internet interactions involve a lot of DOING. sitting watching tv is putting your brain in neutral
16:23:31	storm	There is as yet no empirical evidence supporting the observation that flame wars and love affairs occur in open, interactive virtual communities at a rate higher than what one would find in f2f groups, but there is a growing body of anecdotal reports of this and a widespread awareness of a high frequency of these extreme interpersonal Internet exchanges
16:23:31	LullySing	Julia: something like 8 mouths..maybe more....they talked on the phone...sent videotapes of each other....Why?
16:23:35	pam	I wonder if anybody would like to comment on the issue of disclosure of one's self to others online?
16:23:39	Robin-Hamman	Good luck with your online relationships, if you're in one. : )
16:23:42	skurry	to anyone listening - 50 years ago, you met and married a girl/man in your home town... then people began to work many miles from work, and met new people there... now they meet online, across the world - its "the world getting smaller", that's all! With this progression, comes the breakdown of the old order - - basic sociology
16:23:46	storm	(Walther & Boyd 1997 p.8)
16:23:49	Francisco-Lopez	Bye, Robin... I think creating a fantasy based in Internet is like see only your interior
16:23:57	John-Grohol	"High rates ... of love affairs"?? Compared to what?
16:24:01	Robin-Sircus	Alan I imagine you are right, humans have always had such difficulty with each other
16:24:04	azy	ok, group, it's time for (real) bed.
16:24:28	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Pam, some do and some don't. Why make rules of HAVING to disclose all your truths?
16:24:37	storm	compared to what people would choose to engage in f2f
16:24:53	DrMike	Hi Billie- No, I too see time compression. Not just online. In life. Multimedia. TV headlines, banner ads, you name it. The adrenaline is running...
16:24:58	julia	Lully because i am interested. and how long had she been married, did she has kids?
16:24:58	Francisco-Lopez	Ok, Azy. And what is the "real" time? :)
16:25:09	Billie	storm....what is the name of the book or article....
16:25:36	storm	Walther, J. B. (1996). Computer-Mediated communication: Impersonal, interpersonal, and hyperpersonal interaction. Communication Research, 23, 1, p3-43.
16:25:42	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	yup, skurry, it's a new world order and we are the pioneers. cyber culture is something in its own right
16:25:44	pam	yes storm I am looking for research on comparing those two
16:25:44	andrea-baker	Pam good issue, what do you want to know?
16:25:47	azy	real time is 00:21... good night!
16:25:57	andrea-baker	Azy, nighty-night.
16:26:22	Billie	thanks...I have seen the Walther quote several times but doesn't help without some more info
16:26:26	JohnSuler	Bye, Azy. Thanks for coming!
16:26:28	Peg	i treat people online pretty much the same as i do irl. I keep in mind that the people in cyberland are living breathing beings as i am
16:26:38	storm	There is lots of speculation - but little hard empirical research, yet ;-0
16:26:47	julia	i agree with you Peg
16:26:59	Robin-Sircus	I agree Cleo it is just the beginning
16:27:02	Alan	I've got to go as well.. I love thinking of myself as a pioneer, I need to stake out further territory at the moment... Thank you for the discussion - I enjoyed listening, participating -
16:27:14	pam	also I am wondering how the disclosure of intimate details so early in communication between two people would affect a f2f relationship?
16:27:15	LullySing	She had been married for a long time...10+ years if i'm not mistaken...kids...maybe...She really turned her life around...it's amazing...some people said that they gave them hope...
16:27:16	azy	byebye. see you in cyberspace or in boston
16:27:16	stephanie	does anyone know more studies and articles about it?
16:27:21	George-O-Brien	Sometimes I find it useful to sort out reality and the stuff I get going in my head and on the net. I consider the net and my imagination to be rather not too important. Reality seems to me to be where it is. The others are addictions.
16:27:24	JohnSuler	Thanks for coming, Alan!
16:27:41	Javier-Salazar	Right now I'm conducting a qualitative study on Identity in Virtual Communities ...
16:27:53	andrea-baker	Alan, thanks for joining the wagon train.
16:28:09	ocean	I agree about reality george
16:28:23	LullySing	sayonara to those leaving...
16:28:28	Ron-Horn	Scurry, you allude to what sociologists call propinquity, the tendency to bond with others in close proximity. It was that propinquity that assured that the two would share very similar expectations in a relationship. Therefore, they were more stable relationships then. Cyberspace has erased propinquity and the shared expectation along with it.
16:29:01	pam	are there is any quantitative research out there comparing online disclosure and f2f disclosure?
16:29:02	ocean	who here has had a cyber relationship turn into a real, successful, relationship
16:29:19	Billie	I have
16:29:22	andrea-baker	good point....can't we have propinquity in cyberspace, of a different sort.
16:29:44	Peg	i have ocean, it is still blossoming
16:29:46	ocean	and?
16:29:46	LullySing	Not me...My C/T friend...
16:29:46	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	not me, ocean, but I've had LOTS of very fulfilling cyber relationships (and a lot of heartbreak too)
16:29:49	skurry	well put Ron - except that what could be more proximate than talking to you in my living room :)?
16:29:59	M-W	define "successful" ocean?
16:30:19	Francisco-Lopez	Well, I have to leave. I have been very well with you all. GOODBYE! Hasta luego!
16:30:27	Ron-Horn	Propinquity implies a shared culture which is almost impossible across great distances.
16:30:43	ocean	meaningful
16:30:48	Billie	smile M-W success defined in the eye of the beholder
16:30:53	JohnSuler	bye Francisco!
16:30:58	Sheryl	ocean, are you meaning romantic relationship only?
16:31:00	LullySing	and they moved together ..well...this month!!!
16:31:02	andrea-baker	Francisco, hasta luego.
16:31:20	ocean	no
16:31:23	Kevin	many of the problems that occur with converting on online relationship to a RL one is that the RL meeting should be regarded as the beginning and not the continuation of what happened online
16:31:39	Peg	well, we were friends for well over a year before we became romantically involved online... met irl about 4 months after becoming romantic then i moved to canada three months later... it's been over a year now and our relationship is amazing
16:31:51	andrea-baker	don't know if I agree with you totally there, R-H. If you share a discussion forum online you can have similar cultures in a way, yes?
16:31:53	chris	Surely there is a shared culture of technology involved
16:31:58	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	ocean, I consider many of my cyber relationships to be successful -- I've grown from them and learned from them and have been enriched by them
16:32:26	ocean	i see, dr. are you really a dr.? what type
16:32:35	Maggie	Kevin, I must add that sometimes is the end
16:32:45	andrea-baker	Yes, Peg, a lengthy time sequence there before meeting.
16:32:49	Billie	ocean...I consider mine successful and long term...over 8 years
16:32:51	Ken-Burnham	Got to run, enjoyed the chat and thanks to the panel and John for organizing it. Look forward to another
16:32:54	Sheryl	as have I, ocean... some I have met in RL, some remaining online
16:33:01	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	right Kevin, it's a beginning of something completely different
16:33:08	skurry	well - the shared UK-US culture is pretty strong... or perhaps its just where I am.. and don't you think shared intellect is as important? I won't have much to share with an Arkansas pig farmer, online or in RL, but I share an awful lot of interests/references with my American wife
16:33:17	JohnSuler	Thanks for coming, Ken!
16:33:20	Ron-Horn	Andrea: I believe it's only an "electronic" culture, not the fuller culture of shared social experiences and environments.
16:33:47	ocean	shared intellect is very important
16:34:09	andrea-baker	...shared intellect, very important, skurry...okay, thanks, R-H.
16:34:36	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I'm an anthropologist, ocean, studied the love affairs between Thai prostitutes and western men. There is something similar to what the western men went through -- not speaking the language much of the relationship existed only in their heads
16:34:39	Sheryl	and interests ocean... shared intellect and interests can be powerful commonalities
16:35:00	Billie	a link...a level of communication is important...intellect...I'm not sure
16:35:17	Maggie	Bye Bye to everyone!!!
16:35:23	Ron-Horn	Andrea and Skurry: Certainly there are exceptions to prove the rule. That's the problem with aggregate data.
16:35:30	julia	Carol is not here. what about her? her experience?
16:35:33	ocean	very important
16:35:42	Javier-Salazar	but culture can be regarded as an exchange of signifiers, of language. In RL and in VL there is an exchange of language signifiers, thus there might be a culture, or at least there is a basis for it
16:35:51	JohnSuler	Bye Maggie!
16:35:53	skurry	ok - Billie - I suppose I meant an equality in intellect
16:36:13	julia	bye Maggie
16:36:31	ocean	how does online relationships work w/ bipolar
16:36:45	andrea-baker	R-H, I think one thing I am talking about is commonality among g successful online relationships
16:36:51	Sheryl	There has not been much mention of boundaries in this discussion, very relevant, IMO
16:36:57	Ron-Horn	Javier: Yes, language is one facet of culture but is it sufficient to sustain a long-term emotional relationship?
16:36:58	M-W	this way and that way ocean
16:37:04	Billie	I'm not sure that is what the online connection is about...I think it is something more
16:37:08	ocean	i think bipolars are more at risk into thinking there is more to an online relationship than there really is
16:37:19	Kevin	Culture 1 meets culture 2 = culture 3
16:37:37	andrea-baker	WB ulfy!
16:37:44	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	well, ocean, when you're depressed you don't need the energy to bathe get dressed and go out in order to have a social life
16:37:46	Javier-Salazar	Dr Cleo, do you think there is such thing as a Cyber Culture? that is shared by all netizen
16:37:56	LullySing	thumbs up @ JohnSuler
16:38:03	Peg	boundaries are vital. the sooner they are in place the better chance you have of being successful in any type of relationship or friendship
16:38:19	Ron-Horn	Andrea: Therein lies a dandy doctoral dissertation! Just what are the relevant variables?
16:38:22	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	for sure Javier, but we are still making it up as we go along
16:38:40	Ulfy	Back I am and asking the question whether you agreed on any differences between online romance and irl romance
16:38:41	ocean	but, some people are delusional to what the relationship is and might think it is more than it is
16:39:02	andrea-baker	well, I'm working on it....are you in psychology?
16:39:04	John-Grohol	Peg....... I agree firmly with your statement.
16:39:21	skurry	well, famously/infamously the whole subject of psychology is rooted in western judeo-christian culture. so in one sense, most people you meet online share the same culture (unless you speak japanese, etc etc etc)
16:39:25	Sheryl	On line, Peg, it seems boundaries should be more clear, yet frequently get blurred
16:39:26	DrMike	Dr.Cleop-Odzer-- Your point on activation/depression levels is very important. I think that's one reason "online therapy" is so attractive! :-)
16:39:41	Ulfy	Hi andrea!
16:39:43	andrea-baker	Hmmm...did we agree? <S>
16:39:56	M-W	the whole of cyberspace is based on an illusory aspect ocean....it is only when one imbues the fantasy with the notion that this is exactly how it would be in reality, is there a problem
1 6:40:05	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	for sure, ocean, some people (most) don't understand what happens to them online
16:40:23	julia	i go to the therapist, and i am escaping from going because i guess she is not familiar with this, so to whom can i speak on line?
16:40:34	ocean	i agree, dr.
16:40:36	Billie	I don't believe the percentages of people online are greatly different from the percentages of people R/L with various problems
16:41:18	Peg	that's why it's so important put them in place online as well as offline.
16:41:18	M-W	Julia, the practitioner need not be familiar with ONLINE directly to be of equal value as to one that is online
16:41:20	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Mike, I know quite a few people who are depressed and shy, and cannot go out and socialize. the net has been such a help to them
16:41:26	Sheryl	very good point, julia... what sort of professional do you think could help?
16:41:35	julia	i know, but i cant
16:41:55	ocean	that part is true. platonic relationships for support.
16:42:19	julia	a professional who really knows about what's going in here
16:42:21	Billie	julia.....buyer beware is the motto...but there are many online services available
16:42:55	Sheryl	julia, would it have to be someone who had experience with online relationships?
16:42:56	julia	Billie, i didn't understand, sorry
16:43:11	LullySing	oh well...I must be off too....THAT was a good discussion...there should be more, as there's a lot of unresolved issues I can see....
16:43:13	Billie	if you are indeed interested in looking into online services e-mail me I will send you some sites to look over
16:43:45	julia	yes, because if not, something is inhibiting of telling her, because i guess they will think i am mad or not interpret the real thing going here
16:44:02	andrea-baker	Yeah let's do this again, a Part Two, perhaps?? John?
16:44:11	John-Grohol	Gotta get going too... RL unpacking of boxes awaits... Take care all.
16:44:26	ocean	thx john
16:44:33	LullySing	And I wish you all, a very good day/afternoon/night....sayonara
16:44:34	M-W	Julia, ANY therapists can grasp the dynamics of online quite easily...the therapists is interested in your "relationship" to online to discover you.
16:44:36	Billie	thanks John for a wonderful discussion
16:44:37	Ulfy	hi mandy
16:44:52	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	I too have to go. If anybody wants to ask me anything or just say hi -- cleo@cleoodzer.com
16:44:57	Ulfy	Hi Nikki
16:45:10	skurry	John et al - thanks for an enjoyable hour or two - bye all
16:45:20	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	and I can't help but add -- www.cleoodzer.com
16:45:21	pam	thank you for allowing me to sit in on this discussion, it was very interesting
16:45:35	M-W	just like a therapist need not have had a heart attack himself to understand how a man may feel about issues he may have regarding this
16:45:38	Billie	angeldoc@home.com julia....it can be accessed by anyone by highlighting the nick to the right
16:45:44	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	Thanks Aski John for a very interesting discussion
16:45:45	Peg	real life is summoning here too, thanks again for having me john! It was a pleasure meeting all of you :)
16:45:48	Nikki	Hello Ulfy :)
16:45:51	JohnSuler	Bye John! Thanks for coming!
16:45:51	DrMike	Dr.C-O I'm not entirely sure if you're being emphatic or facetious. Clearly looking to the net for all aspects of relational life is not necessarily "healthy". Ciao, I'm headed toward the door too. Great presentation!
16:46:00	andrea-baker	bye skurry, cleo, and lully!
16:46:19	JohnSuler	Thanks everyone for coming! It was a great discussion!
16:46:44	Dr--Cleo-Odzer	oh yes, there can be unhealthy parts Dr. Mike. I won't deny that
16:46:59	M-W	Thanks John...it WAS great..perhaps we should have a regularly scheduled one to address SPECIFIC issues
16:47:10	Ulfy	I am sure looking forward to the log
16:47:13	Ron-Horn	Thanks for the invitation, John. Very stimulating!
16:47:15	Kevin	Thank you JohnSuler
16:47:18	Billie	M-W I used to agree with that statement till I had a heart attack...big difference I assure you in experience
16:47:30	andrea-baker	One for each issue?
16:47:34	julia	Can i suggest something?
16:47:34	JohnSuler	Time for dinner. I must be off too. Again, thank you all for coming! A transcript of the meeting should be available tomorrow at the Behavior Online web site.

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