CHAT TRANSCRIPT - Jan. 24, 1999

    20:45:28JOINJohnSuler has joined.
    20:45:36Mark-Vardellwell cyndi this starting to feel like a regular chat rooms ....hope the adults come soon LOL
    20:45:40tracy55>:-P
    20:45:42JohnSulerHello all!
    20:45:43janstercyndi, they have training sessions for hosts on AOL?
    20:45:46Cyndi-FOAski!
    20:46:01kathyuh oh the boss is here. *grabbing seat in back of classroom, behaving now ...*
    20:46:08Cyndi-FOthey used to -- that was about 3 years ago
    20:46:12Mark-Vardelloops one of the adults is here *just kidding* hiya John S
    20:46:48JohnSulerHiya FO!
    20:47:17jansterwaves to John
    20:47:17Cyndi-FOJohn -- the program wouldn't let me sign on as just FO : (
    20:47:29JOINmackie has joined.
    20:47:43JohnSuleroh, that's a bummer, FO!
    20:47:46Cyndi-FO(I will survive the humiliation of using my real name )
    20:48:11kathyso mark? what makes an adult when chatting online? someone with no humor? pressure ... *grin*
    20:48:17JohnSulerI see you all have been experimenting with smileys!
    20:48:24Mark-Vardelllol cyndi...what is FO stand for anyway?
    20:48:30LEAVEmackie has left.
    20:48:50tracy55:-P
    20:48:50Mark-Vardelllol kathy
    20:48:57kathydon't tell him cyndi...ask him what his 3 dots mean first!!
    20:49:01IDLE
    20:49:06Cyndi-FObut I've heard lots of good guess! (my favorite being Fuzzy Otter)
    20:49:23Mark-Vardelllol@kathy
    20:49:28Cyndi-FOhis 3 dots means he's cybering!
    20:49:57JOINGayla-Novitsky has joined.
    20:50:00JohnSulerisn't that whisper notation interesting?
    20:50:05tracy55(::()::)
    20:50:21Mark-Vardelli will just be over there ------------------------------->
    20:50:26JOINStofle has joined.
    20:50:29JohnSulerit more closely simulates in-person conversation
    20:50:37Cyndi-FOvery interesting -- now we know when people are talking behind our backs :D
    20:50:50Cyndi-FOlol Mark
    20:51:04tracy55:->
    20:51:06jansterthe whispering here is 1 degree less informative than f2f: here we don't know to whom the person is whispering, f2f we would see it
    20:51:16Cyndi-FOhow so John?
    20:51:22kathyoops? Dr.Suler...when a whisper is sent, those dots indicate such? oops...if so, I owe an apology to Mark.
    20:51:33Mark-Vardellcyndi i am looking forward to this...i have been looking at chat rooms a lot this past year
    20:51:45JohnSuleryou can see that someone is whispering, but you don't know what's being said
    20:51:48JOINClay-Tucker-Ladd has joined.
    20:51:52Cyndi-FO(it's impolite in-person to whisper to others while in a group)
    20:51:54tracy55:-&
    20:52:06kathyit stimulates conversation too
    20:52:09Cyndi-FOthis should be fun Mark!
    20:52:16tracy55that's tongue tied :-&
    20:52:18JohnSuler(you also don't know WHOM the person is whispering to
    20:52:25Mark-Vardellapology to me John ....howcome?
    20:52:35Gayla-NovitskySome chats actively discourage whispering
    20:52:43Cyndi-FOlol tracy
    20:52:57Mark-Vardellwell at least interesting cyndi *smiles*
    20:53:00tracy55my lips are sealed :-X
    20:53:10Cyndi-FOI've not been to a chat that discourages whispering
    20:53:44Cyndi-FOmy god...what do people do for cyber if they can't whisper!
    20:53:45Mark-Vardellprivate conversations are consistent in all the chat rooms i have seen
    20:54:03Mark-VardellSWL @ cyndi
    20:54:24jansteri've never seen a chat where you could tell someone was whispering (unless they made a typo !)
    20:54:27JOINDr--Mike has joined.
    20:54:31Gayla-NovitskyCyndi--I've seen meeting-format chats that do; also some of the hosted chats ask you not to whisper to the host
    20:54:42tracy55undecided :-\
    20:54:57JohnSulerhello Michael!!
    20:55:00kathywell? mark started the whispering...he should be chastised.
    20:55:05tracy55speaking with forked tongue :-W
    20:55:07Stofle:0)
    20:55:11JOINdora-weaver has joined.
    20:55:23Gayla-Novitskytracy: lol
    20:55:28Mark-Vardellbrb
    20:55:36Cyndi-FOok...not whispering to a host isn't uncommon -- they can get swamped
    20:55:37JOINJeff-Guterman has joined.
    20:55:39Dr--MikeHi, just checking in!
    20:55:46Cyndi-FOI take it this is a censored chat?
    20:55:51tracy55big laugh :-D
    20:56:04JohnSulercensored, FO?
    20:56:12Cyndi-FOI didn't read the destructions...hee hee
    20:56:33dora-weaverhello
    20:56:34JOINarnie has joined.
    20:56:36tracy55whoops, that didn't work. here's devilish wink ;->
    20:56:36Gayla-NovitskyWhat are your rules, John?
    20:56:48JOINTR3-Blondie has joined.
    20:57:00TR3-Blondieevening All
    20:57:10Cyndi-FOwhen you type the S word it keeps my post from appearing
    20:57:10JohnSulerHi TR3!
    20:57:15JOINJohnGrohol has joined. (Chat Manager)
    20:57:25JohnSulerrules, GN?
    20:57:27Cyndi-FOnow that's annoying
    20:57:30TR3-BlondieHey John! hi hi hi to ALL!
    20:57:33JohnGroholExpletives aren't allowed... evening all!
    20:57:36StofleEvening John
    20:57:49tracy55ok, enough talking to myself. hello all.
    20:57:51TR3-Blondieoops should I have my REAL name in here too? (I don't mind)
    20:57:54JohnSulerHi John!
    20:58:21Cyndi-FOTR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    20:58:27LEAVEDr--Mike has left.
    20:58:38TR3-Blondiehiya tracy! :)
    20:58:45Cyndi-FOLooks like I can't even type it in whisper John
    20:58:46JOINMichael-Fenichel has joined.
    20:58:56TR3-BlondieFOOOOOO hey GF! HUGGZ
    20:59:05JohnSulerreally cramps your style, eh FO?
    20:59:17Cyndi-FOI wonder what other words are censored (evil grin)
    20:59:25kathycyndi...if you need to type the S word..just misspell it...I mean sometimes you just have to say it! *grin*
    20:59:33JOINkloe has joined.
    20:59:44TR3-BlondieLOL @ John S
    20:59:44Cyndi-FOwell, it's difficult to talk about chat and not talk about relationships
    20:59:48JohnSulerlet's give it another 5 minutes or so before we "official" start
    20:59:49Gil-LevinRight. John Suler's name is ot on the whisper list.
    21:00:01JOINDick has joined.
    21:00:15JOINInity has joined.
    21:00:19Jeff-Gutermangood point FO
    21:00:27dora-weaverIs this a test in patience? If so I am failing.
    21:00:37kathy*grabs a seat next to cyndi* let's try it! you go first ... I'm a follower ..
    21:00:38JohnSulermy name isn't on the whisper list?
    21:00:39TR3-Blondiedid he block himself out whispers Gil? hehe
    21:00:42InityHello from Russia for everyone :)
    21:01:03Cyndi-FObesides, it's unbelievable to think that the s word constitutes something worth censoring
    21:01:09Gayla-NovitskyIt is on my whisper list (>)
    21:01:13Cyndi-FOgreetings Inity!
    21:01:16TR3-BlondiePRIVET Inity! kok dilah?
    21:01:23Cyndi-FOcockroach (just testing. LOL)
    21:01:23JohnSulerHello inity!
    21:01:25Mark-Vardellib....John does this have a way to log this session???
    21:01:29kathywonder what happens at the stroke of 9? someone slams a gavel down?
    21:01:43JOINRiver has joined.
    21:01:52Jeff-GutermanMaybe I am slow, no I Am slow, but which "s" word...forget it!
    21:01:54InityExcellent :) 4-56 AM in St.Petersburg... :)
    21:01:58RiverGood Evening Everyone
    21:02:05JohnSulerhey River!
    21:02:49TR3-BlondieReeevah Baybee! hey there
    21:02:50InityHi Dick - long time no see? :))
    21:03:42LEAVEFoxylady has left.
    21:03:44JOINTom has joined.
    21:03:45JOINpam-Richardson has joined.
    21:03:59Tomhello
    21:04:24TR3-BlondieDick.. you in Europe or ..?
    21:04:38TR3-Blondiehi to all who just arrived
    21:04:43DickEurope. Latvia.
    21:04:48Mark-Vardellhmmmm scrolling back is a bit difficult with the refresh
    21:04:53Foxyladyhello all
    21:04:55JOINLorrie has joined.
    21:05:09TR3-Blondieahh by Lithuania and Estonia :) Gotcha
    21:05:09Cyndi-FOHi Foxylady
    21:05:17TR3-Blondiehi Foxy L!
    21:05:18pam-Richardsonthank-you Hi
    21:05:23JohnSuler... a few more minutes until we "start"
    21:05:31Mark-Vardellbtw hiya Michael F....nice to see you on real time chat :-)
    21:05:37RiverHi FoxyL
    21:05:53JohnSulerA suggestion: Keep open a browser window containing the meeting program: http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
    21:05:55DickTR3-Blondie: right ;)
    21:05:55LorrieMickey?
    21:06:19Foxyladygood to see Riv again and TR-3 and Cyndi....cool!
    21:06:26TR3-Blondiehi pam et al
    21:06:27dora-weaverHi Lorrie: Lorrie from Semo?
    21:06:32JOINmjpphd has joined.
    21:06:43DickAny ideas about scrolling back with refresh 5? Except for switching to 60?
    21:06:54kathyyes I have this bookmarked....I'm popping in an out cause I'm constantly booted...darn!
    21:07:03LorrieYea, Lorrie from SEMO
    21:07:10Mark-Vardell*getting out my notepad and sharpened pencils* lol
    21:07:11Cyndi-FOsounds good....I'm taking a break
    21:07:20JOINMartha has joined.
    21:07:33Judy-KraybillHi mjp!
    21:07:54mjpphdHi Judy!
    21:08:36RiverI want to know where my avatar went?
    21:08:52M--FenichelHi Mark, all, sorry I'm on the list twice since going back and forth a page! Just one me, though.
    21:08:52JOINTammy has joined.
    21:08:59dora-weaverLorrie: I am glad to see, hear, or experience you.
    21:09:07Mark-Vardellhello again Michael Fenichel ...nice to see online ...in real time *smiles*
    21:09:09JohnSulerthere will be some structure, yes Jeff
    21:09:27Jeff-Gutermank
    21:09:28LorrieNice to "cyber" with you too
    21:09:43M--FenichelNice to be here, with and without structure. Here's a virtual toast! :-)
    21:09:56DickGayla-Novitsky: OK, but I've my 1600x1280 locked by rendering on another machine... having only 800x600 here... which doesn't get much on screen,,, :(
    21:09:58LorrieWhat is on the agenda?
    21:11:04IDLE
    21:11:18InityHi Boar :)
    21:11:22JohnSuler*A suggestion: Keep open a browser window containing the meeting program: http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
    21:11:26Mark-Vardelllol Michael F *toasting back*
    21:11:37Gayla-NovitskyDick: yiiiii,that IS a nuisance
    21:11:40BoarHi Inity!=)
    21:11:44JohnSuler(notice how the software doesn't let you repeat yourself?)
    21:12:01Mark-Vardelllol john
    21:12:18Mark-Vardelldon't why it repeated some messages
    21:12:31JohnSulerWE HAVE AN EXCELLENT GROUP OF PEOPLE HERE!
    21:12:40janstermark vardell just did repeat himself (twice at least)
    21:12:43InityWhat a silence?...
    21:12:51M--FenichelProbably cause I'm a fan of toasting at such get-togethers!
    21:12:53JOINValerie-Hart has joined.
    21:12:54JohnSulerWE DO HAVE A GENERAL STRUCTURE FOR OUR DISCUSSION TONIGHT
    21:12:56TR3-Blondie*waving helloooo to all*
    21:13:29JohnSulerhttp://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
    21:13:53Cyndi-FOok
    21:14:00JohnSulerANYONE CAN SPEAK AT ANY TIME
    21:14:19JohnSulerIF NECESSARY, WE WILL MOVE TO A "HAND RAISING" FORMAT
    21:14:40BoarEnjoy the silence =) depeche mode (c)
    21:14:49JohnSulerWHAT'S IT LIKE BEING HERE?
    21:15:00JOINCharlie-Seashore has joined.
    21:15:07TomDoes anyone have access to DSM V discussions?
    21:15:13JohnSulerWHAT IS THIS STYLE OF COMMUNICATING LIKE.. PROS... CONS...
    21:15:40mjpphdJohn - so far, this discussion seems slow.
    21:15:51BoarNo=) My real name is Sergey
    21:16:01MarthaFeels a little more "present" than e-mail; to coincide in time, if not in space!
    21:16:15tracy55what is it about chat that causes many of us to regress and act childlike?
    21:16:29InityIRC Rules forever :))
    21:16:34RiverBut less "present" than avatar type chats
    21:16:36JohnSuleryes, "presence
    21:16:37DickRe: Gayla-Novitsky: if only you _CAN_... here lies a difference between IRC and web-chats like this one.
    21:16:37Jeff-GutermanDidn't like idea of chat software not being realtime (refreshing), but that is okay and it seems robust, so I like it
    21:16:53kloeI prefer one on one chat
    21:17:03LorrieNo other way to get the attention we experience in other conversations
    21:17:12Gayla-NovitskyDick: I'm not sure what you mean
    21:17:13JOINStephen has joined.
    21:17:13Mark-Vardellhow so river?
    21:17:17dora-weaverI notice that the lag time is causing me to experience some anxiety or some impatience. I also notice that I am experiencing a little paranoia.
    21:17:17InityThese refreshing are annoying :(
    21:17:24jansterjohn, with all due respect, this software is awkward compared to most chat systems i've seen, especially the upside down scrolling and the refresh thing
    21:17:41JOINStephen-Lankton has joined.
    21:17:48Gayla-Novitskyinity: I agree--the constant blinking blinking blinking
    21:17:52kathyI think mIRC and PowWow (www.tribal.com) would be faster for chat ... little more complex at first, but it's quick to learn.
    21:17:56Michael-FenichelI inadvertently whispered...I think we need to adjust to the 10 second echo, to get into the "synchronous" rhythm!
    21:18:00InityYes, this scrolling up --> down is very unusual...
    21:18:06TR3-Blondieanonymity I think, Tracy..
    21:18:10Stoflethe upside down scrolling really threw me off.... I keep on trying to get to the bottom.
    21:18:13Cyndi-FOactually, mine is refreshing fairly smoothly
    21:18:16JohnGroholI dislike software which requires client downloads.
    21:18:17RiverHow Many people here are Palace users?
    21:18:17LorriePatience isn't listed as a virtual for no reason
    21:18:20Mark-Vardelldora you will adjust and focus as any big chat room....selecting and focusing on the trend will become easier the more you do it
    21:18:25JohnSuleryes, there are some disadvantages to Freechat... but it's advantage is that it's easy to use
    21:18:25Chat GuyJohnSuler, I'm sorry to hear that...
    21:18:27Gayla-Novitskyyes, I like mIRC too
    21:18:42FoxyladyI'm a palace user
    21:18:47dora-weaverThe silence brings back my memory of dealing with silence by clients when I was in graduate school.
    21:18:48DickGayla-Novitsky: this thing virtually disables seeing whatever passes below the online screen, even if it's in the buffer (and in the browser, actually) because of that uncontrollable refresh
    21:18:49InityPowWow was my first personal communicator... I remember the great day of my FIRST chat-experience with it... it was like a miracle, two years ago.
    21:18:50JohnSulerahh..it's ChatGuy!
    21:19:14JOINIgoriy has joined.
    21:19:15Gayla-NovitskyIt sounds like Palace users get used to avatars very quickly
    21:19:26Mark-Vardellinity you have other including myself pow wow users here :-)
    21:19:27jansterthere are easy to use www chat clients that don't require plugins that are more like regular chats, certainly without refresh, and scrolling downwards
    21:19:30Cyndi-FOyes Gayla
    21:19:34TR3-Blondiewe do Gayla :)
    21:19:41Cyndi-FOactually, text only is hard to adjust to
    21:19:43Riverhaving an avatar adds an entire visual level to chat
    21:19:52tracy55At least with this set up we have few technical problems. With more efficient chat setups, you have to help others deal with technical issues...
    21:19:53Riveran say a lot without even speaking
    21:19:58TR3-Blondieit feels there is a "body" -- yes
    21:19:59LorrieDora: try playing music in the background it will help calm you and makes it a little easier to focus
    21:20:00Cyndi-FOI'm used to using "props" to express some ideas
    21:20:04JohnGroholnods
    21:20:06kathyGayla, at a cocktail party, you have body language to help you know someone, in chat rooms, you have their words and sometimes the words share more about the person than a real time meeting
    21:20:10Jeff-GutermanAny Active Worlds users?
    21:20:12Foxyladyok starting to get used to this strange way of communicating. I really prefer the Palace to chat in.
    21:20:12Gayla-NovitskyDick: I see that now--if you miss something, you are doomed here
    21:20:16MarthaI do notice that I'm just as agoraphobic in here as I would be in a cocktail party.
    21:20:22JohnSuler....(conversation seems confusing in chat... takes time to develop an "eye" for reading it)...
    21:20:22InityI uninstalled PowWow some time ago, for it doesn't support russian language... :(
    21:20:33JohnGroholThis is "minimalist chat."
    21:20:35Mark-Vardellagree i like the avatar but also like the pureness of text only
    21:20:41JOINElectra has joined.
    21:20:45TR3-BlondieI agree, FOxy
    21:20:47Cyndi-FOI haven't used Pow since ICQ came along
    21:20:47Gayla-NovitskyKathy: I have bad hearing; at parties I often miss a lot of what's said, so I'm actually happier in chat
    21:20:55pam-RichardsonI am new at this could someone discuss the Palace and how it is the same or different then chat rooms?
    21:21:04StofleI'm used to the chat rooms on AOL.
    21:21:07dora-weaverlorrie, do you get the same amount of lagtime when you use the webboard?
    21:21:09Mark-Vardelllol gayla
    21:21:09InityI used Active Worlds, but it is so SLOW! :(
    21:21:09Gil-LevinI find it hard to comment in a timely way because there are so many messages. This may because there are so many of us, not because of the environment. because we ar
    21:21:12IgoriyAbout than talk, friends?
    21:21:16JohnSuler....(criss-crossed conversations)....
    21:21:24JOINstorm has joined.
    21:21:34janstergayla, i have the same condition and i agree, chat is only place i can "hear" large groups
    21:21:38JohnSulerhello storm!
    21:21:50Charlie-SeashoreTHE ACTION HAS STOPPED
    21:21:54MarthaAlthough I'm uncomfortable in a crowd, when I worked with my therapist one on one in chat that was comfortable enough.
    21:21:58Mark-Vardellhiya storm
    21:21:58DickCyndi-FO: do you prefer ICQ chats over "pure IRC" clients? perhaps you're mostly using one-to-one style?
    21:22:04Gayla-NovitskyGL: yes, it's tricky if you want to keep track of multiple threads
    21:22:06Cyndi-FO<---picturing John on a Sofa scribbling notes while observing the group dynamics lol
    21:22:12TR3-BlondiePalace has that log so I can follow chat as well as see "bodies"
    21:22:13InityICQ became too much popular... but I don't like it.
    21:22:25Charlie-SeashoreI'm back - sorry for the shout
    21:22:26Michael-FenichelI work with kids who *love* chat rooms, and Kathy brings up an interesting point about say "visual" cues, like avatars. Perhaps they help you discriminate among the "noise" in busy cocktail, er, chat rooms.
    21:22:27JohnSuler...(chat is often like a group free association)...
    21:22:29stormhi all
    21:22:38Cyndi-FOI like ICQ for many reasons -- but not for group chat
    21:22:38LorrieNo, I have high-speed modem and trying to read it all is difficult
    21:22:50pam-Richardsonthank-you
    21:23:14Mark-Vardellplay is the binding thing in chat that i notice John
    21:23:15InityOur channel on IRC is a meeting place of friends - subscribers of the same newsgroup (conference).
    21:23:21Cyndi-FOIRC was difficult for me, which is why I began with AOL
    21:23:27tracy55since we don't have nonverbals to help us feel heard I notice that we say each other's names a lot in chat. sometimes it's kind of like a caress. Having our name typed by someone is an acknowledgement.
    21:23:39JohnSuleryes... play... banter...
    21:23:45Gayla-Novitsky(I'm going to have to take a look at Palace)
    21:23:47BoarInity, are you don't like ICQ? =)
    21:23:49Jeff-GutermanAnyone use CUSeeMe?
    21:23:53jansterIRC clients nowadays allow you to have some visual (color) cues, and even sound (wave files), but not really multimedia
    21:23:53TR3-BlondieI found more "smut" feel to IRC and AOL.not meant to offend
    21:23:57Foxyladythe Palace is a good place to chat because you can create a room around you that fits whatever mood your in....like a beach, or forest, or mountains...its cool
    21:24:01Michael-FenichelHi Storm, John, Gil ... And I love ICQ for real-time among a few friends or family.
    21:24:16Cyndi-FOThere were lots of non-smut places on AOL -- but you have to hunt them down : )
    21:24:19Mark-Vardellyes and creativity is the positiveness in chat rooms i believe
    21:24:26LEAVEMartha has left.
    21:24:26LEAVEIgoriy has left.
    21:24:28TR3-BlondieI USED to Jeff.. not even sure why I stopped
    21:24:46Lorrieaddress for the palace?
    21:24:50InityBoar: or you haven't heard about this many times? I don't like ICQ. And, ICQ is huge security hole and "Big Brother's eye" in your computer :))
    21:24:55JOINMarthaAinsworth has joined.
    21:24:57TR3-Blondieas an aside.. I tried AOL 5 or 6 yrs ago
    21:24:59DickCyndi-FO: there are lots of IRC clients quite easy to setup... and easy to use, I believe. VIRC might be an example. ICQ'98 appears to be even more complicated.
    21:25:10Cyndi-FOEvery chat has it's own cache of gems -- it takes patience to find sometimes though
    21:25:16JohnSulerhi Martha!
    21:25:24tracy55In whatever chat setup, there's a big difference between going into an existing chat room and creating your own chat with invited participants.
    21:25:37JOINBillie has joined.
    21:25:37Cyndi-FODick -- I confess, it's been 6 years since I tried IRC
    21:25:38pam-Richardsonyes I will have to check out the palace myself soon
    21:25:39Gayla-NovitskyICQ is now owned by AOL, I believe
    21:25:44Cyndi-FOSo I'm sure it's improved!
    21:25:47MarthaAinsworthHi - I was here before but I just decided I'd better add my last name!
    21:25:49Tom!
    21:25:58Cyndi-FOyes, AOL purchased ICQ
    21:25:59TR3-Blondieyes Gayla.. yer right
    21:26:03Charlie-SeashoreI've been using chat for meetings of doctoral committees doing interim work with students as a means of saving money on conference calls. It is quite slow and a bit trying, but with practice it can work relatively efficiently. Each group has to get up to speed.
    21:26:05Mark-Vardelllol martha :-)
    21:26:06Boarhi Igoriy!=)
    21:26:09Cyndi-FOWB Martha!
    21:26:23JOINConrad-Newman has joined.
    21:26:23StofleI knew it was you, Martha.
    21:26:32JOINDoug-W has joined.
    21:26:33LorrieMickey, turn the frames off and it is easier
    21:26:34janstercyndi, they have GUI point&click clients for irc that make it a lot easier than the old command-line style
    21:26:54InityVIRC ? brrr... mIRC forever! Or even, IRC in Telnet session! ... I begin to hate GUI... Somebody present me new hard drive, please, then I'll set up Unix on my second machine which is without hard drive now :))
    21:26:57tracy55I teach Internet chat and conferencing. Feel free to use class website: http://www.webwinds.com/irc/chat.htm
    21:27:01JohnGroholthe IRC networks still suffer from lag, and a myriad of other problems, which keeps them less than reliable (IMO).
    21:27:06Gayla-NovitskyCharlie: up to speed in terms of ease of using the software?
    21:27:25Gil-LevinCharlie, your experience gives me hope :)
    21:27:31Cyndi-FOlol...we have some serious geeks in here :D
    21:27:55jansterjohngrohol, there are literally hundreds of different IRC nets now, large and small, domestic, international, specialized, private, tons of 'em
    21:28:12Gayla-NovitskyMSN gave its chat-software IRC capabilities and it has been driving us nuts ever since
    21:28:14Riverbeside the refresh and inverted screen this isn't too terrible
    21:28:26JohnSulerhow are people finding this discussion so far?
    21:28:29JohnGroholI'm mainly talking about the larger, established public networks that most people still use.
    21:28:32Gayla-NovitskyTracy: I'll stop by!
    21:28:36Cyndi-FOIt takes incredible energy to move someone off of their favorite
    21:28:44Jeff-GutermanNice flow, John
    21:28:50InityI'm truing to understand, is here the difference between english- and russian-language chats......
    21:29:04JohnSuleris anyone experiencing any difficulties?
    21:29:26Mark-Vardellyes cyndi i noticed that too .... actually i have found the same level interaction on irc and yahoo as pow wow
    21:29:32LorrieSomehow I feel like I just got lost and winded up in Silicone Valley
    21:29:33Electraoh my yes .. have had that fun with solid icq fans I tried to invite to Palace
    21:29:33DickJohnGrohol: it appears people are actually mostly using global IRC networks rather for wide-area communications... preferring small a la private nets for everyday use
    21:29:38pam-RichardsonI frequent a chat room where the people actual meet every month in a central location
    21:29:46M--FenichelWorking real smooth, at 5 seconds per refresh....
    21:29:59tracy55This chat...and many chats...are very much like big family dinner conversations where everybody's talking and yelling and hardly anyone's listening or responding.
    21:30:02Mark-Vardellwhat really makes a chat room is the level and depth of the regulars there
    21:30:03JohnSulerwhat are the features of chat that people like?
    21:30:04BoarIgoriy Here minimum 3 persons from Russia =)
    21:30:05Jeff-GutermanI am prone to wanna "stop time," and have people go one at a time and work through ideas....it takes time and patience on chat, though.
    21:30:13Cyndi-FOlol Jeff...yes
    21:30:32LEAVEM--Fenichel has left.
    21:30:35BoarIgoriy go to www.xxlmusic.sp.ru =)
    21:30:36RiverOK..People are chatting...regardless of the client
    21:30:49JOINKEVIN-GROLD has joined.
    21:30:51tracy55With more than 5-6 people, it tends to become a free-for-all unless there's a means of focus.
    21:30:52dora-weaverJohn; I misunderstood you. You suggested we talk about our chat experience. It seems as though most of us thought you meant technical problems. However, I thought you meant our psychological experiences.
    21:30:58jansterjohnsuter, i like reading top to bottom! most recent stuff at bottom of scroll
    21:31:00IDLE
    21:31:01JohnSuleryes, jeff,the discussion is not linear (reminds me of faculty meetings!)
    21:31:05Riverwhats better or different about cyber vs real life ??
    21:31:07pam-Richardsonpeople like the fact that they are judged by their comments instead of their looks
    21:31:19Electrahi FO.. *s*
    21:31:23IgoriyO, girls - as you here much!!!
    21:31:26Cyndi-FOWow...I saw my name followed by some expletives -- seems normal!
    21:31:41InityI feel psychological comfort chatting in my favorite program...
    21:31:49Foxyladyhaha cyndi
    21:31:54JohnSuleryes, I meant psychological experience of chat... which is linked to how the software is designed
    21:31:58RiverYes Pam Richardson...the physical doesn't matter
    21:32:02Billie<smile> FO
    21:32:34LEAVEConrad-Newman has left.
    21:32:34Gayla-NovitskyConversational multi-tasking is fun!
    21:32:41InityI like to set my custom colors, sounds... to feel myself comfortable with chat...
    21:32:44Riverthere is also a large degree of physical safety too
    21:32:54Cyndi-FOchat makes it easy to have a social life in an otherwise busy real life
    21:32:55BoarInity, you favorite program...is ICQ?=))
    21:32:56JohnSulerit IS interesting how one feels at home in one's favored chat environment
    21:33:01Electrawhy do people call it real life..rather than offline?
    21:33:15Billiedifferent cocktail parties different levels of comfort
    21:33:17Cyndi-FOfolks are so busy these days, it's exhausting to think of leaving the house
    21:33:23jansterjohnsuter, i find myself having to work too hard to follow the flow of the conversation cause it's upside down, i don't like having to pay so much attention to the act of reading, rather than the content
    21:33:23pam-RichardsonI think that the anonymity of the whole chat whole has the greatest impact on the communication
    21:33:29JOINEllen has joined.
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    21:33:30JohnGroholI don't think most programs and technologies think very much about the psychology of the user experience nearly as much as they should, especially things like chat...
    21:33:33KEVIN-GROLDAnyone heard about LIVE Counseling Online?
    21:33:37D--HeltonYes Cyndi I agree, with very little risk
    21:33:38Gayla-NovitskyElectra: because "meat life" sounds yucky
    21:33:43LorrieThe thing about chat rooms is that we can agree to talk about only one subject, but because their are no social rules everyone talks about whatever they want anyway.
    21:33:47JohnGroholAlthough that is thankfully changing more and more each year.
    21:33:49Mark-Vardellagee cyndi....and a development of long term friendship....not any less than f2f
    21:33:56InityYou mean there is life outside of Internet?! (c) R. Hayden
    21:33:59Cyndi-FOlittle risk -- and also can be done on your terms
    21:34:05Cyndi-FOlol Inity
    21:34:10Gil-LevinI agree with Janster that this is hard work.
    21:34:16RiverNot for some people Igo
    21:34:19Cyndi-FOwhen you're ready or have time
    21:34:24Gayla-NovitskyKeven: you mean the Doc in England ?Razziterri or whatever?
    21:34:35InityBoar: my favorite is mIRC for chatting
    21:34:38Mark-Vardelllol inity
    21:34:43D--Heltonyes Cyndi, one can choose to ignore those don't want to respond to
    21:34:44DickJohnGrohol: customizable IRC clients with advanced GUI interfaces appear to be much more psychologically adaptive than 'traditional' chat programs
    21:34:53Cyndi-FOBut...being able to chat with people from all over the world is a real bonus
    21:35:07pam-Richardsonpeople will say things that they wouldn't necessary say to a person when first meeting in real life
    21:35:17RiverJohn G..have you seen or used visual chats..ie Palace?
    21:35:17janstergil, to me it seems counter intuitive to read a page bottom to top... makes me wonder if this is an experiment on purpose :)
    21:35:19Foxyladyyeah I heard about counseling on line. There is even a palace set up for it. But no one is ever there when I went.
    21:35:22BoarIgoriy,Good luck
    21:35:22JohnGroholDick............ Yes, but such client interfaces were not in the original implementation or design of IRC over a decade ago. Relatively new phenomenon...
    21:35:26KEVIN-GROLDGayla--this is different--i will send you the web page.
    21:35:34LEAVEIgoriy has left.
    21:35:39MarthaAinsworthKevin, I've done it (as a patient)
    21:35:42Cyndi-FOPersonally, I don't see how counseling online can be effective
    21:35:58KEVIN-GROLDhttp://www.1-800-therapist.com/event.html
    21:35:58MarthaAinsworthsorry about the unintentional whisper
    21:35:58BoarHi Dick :)
    21:36:00IDLEarnie has left.
    21:36:00DickJohnGrohol: OK, just like web chats.
    21:36:00D--Heltonthe visual chat of Palace for example seems easier to keep up with as far as people's conversations
    21:36:11KEVIN-GROLDMartha--what was it like?
    21:36:14Gayla-NovitskyKevin: thanks--I am building a database for my thesis
    21:36:19DickHi Boar ;)
    21:36:19JOINLiz has joined.
    21:36:41JohnGrohol"BetaChat" is in this program's name for a reason... this is not a commercial chat client... It has some aspects which are being worked on, and definitely the reading top to bottom is one of them.
    21:36:46D--Heltonperhaps I'm not as used to this medium
    21:36:46Cyndi-FOAll chat is confusing with initial experience
    21:36:48LEAVELiz has left.
    21:36:54LorrieWith a one on one, on-line counseling can have benefits, but for more than one on one its too hard to have structure.
    21:36:55Gayla-NovitskyKevin: I think those are the phone referral people--Thanks for the info
    21:36:56kathywhy not cyndi? ever help a person with a problem on line? a therapist can do the same....
    21:36:59Mark-Vardellone thing about anonimity .... profiles seems more and more elaborate on some chat programs...wonder if anonimity as a feature will pass soon
    21:37:03stormchatting in a group is very different from using this for a one to one
    21:37:04Cyndi-FOmany who first try Palace are confused until they adjust
    21:37:07pam-RichardsonGayla what is your thesis on?
    21:37:13MarthaAinsworthKevin - it was pretty profound
    21:37:18dora-weaveraddress for Palace?
    21:37:26Cyndi-FOBecause it seems counseling requires an ability to see facial expressions
    21:37:31InityI like the ascetic IRC window. Not many funny buttons, I don't like these bright colors and colorful windows... I like IRC, it's ascetic. I like green letters on a black screen...
    21:37:33KEVIN-GROLDStofle--can you send me an email about your experience? grold@1-800-therapist.com
    21:37:34Cyndi-FOor hear the tone of voice
    21:37:36kathy*waving to liz from back of room* saved you a seat!
    21:37:40BoarDick: lv?=)
    21:37:46Cyndi-FOhttp://www.thepalace.com
    21:37:49Mark-Vardellfor example as technology increases and we have video and voice capabilities too
    21:37:54stormGayla-Novitsky - what is your thesis?
    21:37:56DickBoar: mhm ;)))
    21:37:58D--Heltonthepalace.com is one place to get on dora
    21:37:58Cyndi-FOperhaps online combined with f2f can be effective
    21:38:01JohnGroholD-Helton....... Yes, and no. I've spent a fair amount of time in a palace and found that sometimes the conversations were just as difficult to follow... and the balloons restricted long notes at one time...
    21:38:08Stoflecheck out my web site at http://members.aol.com/stofle/index.htm
    21:38:19MarthaAinsworthIf you want to know more about therapy online you can check out my site http://www.metanoia.org/imhs/
    21:38:25Gayla-Novitskypam/storm: group counseling in cyberspace
    21:38:27Electrahttp://www.thepalace.com/welcome/index.html
    21:38:28Cyndi-FOright John...each chat has their quirks and limitations
    21:38:45MarthaAinsworthCyndi - for some people, having no visual contact makes it way easier to talk about hard things. that was my experience.
    21:38:49Mark-Vardellyes cyndi
    21:38:51JohnGroholCyndi............ Agreed. And we all have our personal preferences which aren't like to change any time soon! ;-)
    21:39:01Cyndi-FOyes Helton -- I've killed people like you on Palace :P
    21:39:25D--Heltonha ha cyndi
    21:39:27ElectraLOL FO!!!
    21:39:35InityStofle: server says it's too busy ...
    21:39:35dora-weaverThanks Cyndi.
    21:39:37D--Heltonsay it was me making long notes
    21:39:38Cyndi-FOMartha -- are we talking about online counseling of people you've met f2f or total strangers?
    21:39:41Jeff-GutermanI think active Worlds is excellent,although it is only available to PC users, no Macs...at http://www.counselingzone.com, we have our own virtual world called Genrica with animated, not static, avatars in a 3D environment.
    21:39:57Cyndi-FO(just kidding Holton. hee hee)
    21:40:00stormGayla-Novitsky: group email or chat or both - counseling in cyberspace
    21:40:17pam-Richardsonit sounds very interesting Gayla, I want to do my thesis on the online chatting habits of college students
    21:40:20Stoflesorry Inity :0(
    21:40:22tracy55Some people like me prefer to write/talk slowly, in depth, many sentences. Others are geared to quick oneliners. Email mentality vs. chat mentality.
    21:40:30MarthaAinsworthCyndi - strangers. I hadn't met my therapist f2f when we worked online. (I later did.)
    21:40:31JohnSulerWOULD YOU LIKE TO (1) SWITCH TO A HAND RAISING FORMAT, OR, (2) STAY IN THIS OPEN DISCUSSION?
    21:40:45Cyndi-FOright tracy -- I belong to listserves because those allow greater depth
    21:40:47Inity2, 2, 2...
    21:40:56Jeff-Guterman(1)
    21:41:01LEAVEKEVIN-GROLD has left.
    21:41:01InityPlease, don't switch...
    21:41:01Gayla-NovitskyStorm: what I'd like to do is chat, personally. I am including both types in the database portion
    21:41:07Lorriehand please
    21:41:09pam-Richardson1
    21:41:09RiverHOW about Q&A with hands John
    21:41:12Electrahand raising format??
    21:41:15RichardI haven't found the greater depth! What are listserves?
    21:41:20Gil-LevinI think it would be less chaotic goals and high motivation.
    21:41:21Michael-FenichelJohn- I'd enjoy either...perhaps you'd "summarize" the first segment?Electra- How refreshing! I hear lots of people who consider "offline" to mean "on hold with tech support"! :-)
    21:41:22MarthaAinsworth1
    21:41:33InitySwitching to hand raising will kill all beauty of chat-conversation freedom...
    21:41:44Cyndi-FOJohn....if there are specific topics you want to cover, how about leading the discussion?
    21:41:54TomI've had chats where "!" & ":)" (the ascii version, that is) were all I used...like 'huh-huh'
    21:41:54D--Heltonhas anyone used counselingonline.com's Palace site?
    21:42:03Cyndi-FOthen moving to a new topic when ready?
    21:43:01JOINStacy-Horn has joined.
    21:43:07LEAVEEllen has left.
    21:43:09JohnSulerThen I'll call on the next HAND in line to present the next question or idea.
    21:43:26Inity:(((
    21:43:32JOINNexxie has joined.
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    21:44:00Stacy-HornSorry I'm late, rehearsal for my band went late.
    21:44:03Michael-FenichelHAND
    21:44:09Electrahi nexxie
    21:44:23JohnSulerMICHAEL?
    21:44:32Gil-LevinHAND We are talking about "What are the features of this chat environment?
    21:44:33NexxieHi El
    21:45:00Foxyladysorry, I got to go...byebye all.
    21:45:00Chat GuyGoodbye, Foxylady... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    21:45:10JOINAngeL has joined.
    21:45:16Michael-FenichelQuickie- I find it interesting, looking at the format, that in fact in Part 1 we did see "how it works" and actually move towards what it can be used for!
    21:45:21Cyndi-FOby FL!
    21:45:26Stacy-HornCan someone fill me in on the current topic?
    21:45:32LEAVEFoxylady has left.
    21:45:42Electrahi angle
    21:45:52JohnSulerOK... lets talk about the use of chat.HAND?
    21:45:52LEAVEarnie has left.
    21:45:54AngeLhello
    21:46:15JohnSulerRIVER?
    21:46:17Mark-VardellMichael i don't know the use but i see the attraction to chat rooms
    21:46:29RiverWhat do people think of the FUTURE of online chat???
    21:46:33Jeff-GutermanI don't quite understand what you meant, Michael, that we have moved forward, that we have not, and/or that we should?
    21:46:33AngeLhey Electra
    21:46:34BillieHand
    21:46:37LorrieSomebody needs a lot of attention. Isn't that right Inity?
    21:46:43RiverHow might it evolve??
    21:47:34D--HeltonI like going where "everybody knows my name" as they say
    21:47:39Cyndi-FOthink of chat as a communication tool...good for some things
    21:47:42kathyhand
    21:48:05Michael-FenichelMy observation was that we went beyond discussing technology, and there was a movement towards questions on chat, counseling, etc, online.
    21:48:06D--HeltonIt's fun to talk to others in the comfort of my home and unwind about my day
    21:48:10TammyRiver ..I my self think that if chat is to become too popular people will stop feeling the way humans were meant to feel. It is too easy to become detatched
    21:48:15Riverand good for more and more things as more people get wired??
    21:48:17tracy55One feature of this chat is that if you walk away for 2 minutes you can't catch up with what you missed. The screen moves forward and you can't read more than one minute of what was before.
    21:48:23Gayla-NovitskyStacy: But don't you have more physical access to most of the people you want to talk to anyway?
    21:48:58Cyndi-FOI think chat is here for the long haul River
    21:49:00JohnGroholI think the future is what you see here -- people finding chat communities, all using different technologies, that they enjoy best. . . That fit into their lives, their personalities, their ways of interacting... and then staying with them.
    21:49:01RiverGood Point Tammy....but people who chat do get together in real life
    21:49:17Gil-LevinHAND
    21:49:22Cyndi-FOIt may evolve and improve, but it has become as important as the telephone
    21:49:35Riverand it can enhance our off line world
    21:50:00Michael-FenichelJeff--Of course we move forward, but not equally all the time in terms of the technology, theory, or practice. I think chat for pure socialization fun is this generation's telephone and cb radio rolled into one! John G's right, we're all the future, whether we like this IRC or that one! :-)
    21:50:01JohnSulerchat is an art form
    21:50:04Electrauhmmm..whats a telephone??
    21:50:05BillieAgrees with Inity and D--Helton
    21:50:07Gayla-Novitskyand the telephone didn't dehumanize us
    21:50:14Cyndi-FOTammy -- chatting online hasn't replaced f2f
    21:50:16JohnSuler... so I think people will also want it around
    21:50:26D--Heltonyes river, just like having a pen pal in England enhanced my world as a kid
    21:50:28stormthere are people that are involved online that are turned off by the multi-tasking needed for chat. it is not attractive to everyone
    21:50:29Cyndi-FOlol Electra. the thing yer modem is hooked to
    21:50:31Riverlol @ Electra
    21:50:36Stacy-HornI prefer non-realtime conversations. Like what happens on The WELL (and Echo).
    21:51:11Charlie-SeashoreWhat happened to Gil's hand?
    21:51:16RiverYes Stacy H..you can be more thoughtful in postings
    21:51:18TammyCyndi but the way things are going with online chats it may
    21:51:24Stacy-HornChat is good for light, conversation.
    21:51:30Billiealready made John continue
    21:51:32Mark-Vardellrelationship are formed online and as John Suler indicated f2f often really cements a relationship that began in a chat room
    21:51:39Judy-KraybillTeleconferencing on bridge lines is very comfortable and easy to use...
    21:51:48Billietossing you an extra "L"
    21:51:51RiverOr ends it
    21:51:52tracy55i think we need to differentiate one to one from group in regard to chat. very different experience.
    21:51:55Stofleone on one chat can be quite meaningful.
    21:51:59JohnSulerLET'S MOVE ON TO KATHY'S COMMENT/QUESTION
    21:52:04JOINKen-Norton has joined.
    21:52:17D--Heltonyes Stacy, but I could see chat used by a therapist for group with structured rules up front
    21:52:20Mark-Vardelli disagree there is play and light but i have seen ppls use chat for much deeper and meaning forms of support
    21:52:36Cyndi-FOme too Mark
    21:52:47Cyndi-FOand I disagree stacy -- there is a sense of history
    21:52:57D--Heltonyes mark I agree
    21:52:58Cyndi-FOlike with any community.
    21:52:59InityModerating a chat is like a trying to herd ferrets... :)
    21:53:04Gayla-Novitskyme too, Mark
    21:53:06Stacy-HornI only speaking generally, Mark.
    21:53:17Riverlol inity
    21:53:18JohnSuleryup, that's fer sure, Inity
    21:53:21Cyndi-FOfriend from Palace visited me in Seattle and we began reviewing "screen caps" the same way my family looks over photo albums
    21:53:26Billie<smile> Inity
    21:53:35JohnSulerKATHY, DID YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING?
    21:53:37kathylol Inity!
    21:53:38Mark-Vardellyes i am constantly amazed at he history and sharing of life experiences by regulars of a room
    21:53:40Cyndi-FOlol John
    21:53:42LorrieSeems to be a structure problem for groups. Everyone can speak whenever. No true sense of order.
    21:53:56JOINSusan has joined.
    21:54:16Stacy-HornCyndi, again speaking generally but what chat service do you visit that has history? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying it's unusual.
    21:54:20RiverSO, with structure and history it sounds like community?
    21:54:34JohnSulerOKAAAY....GIL, I THINK YOU HAD YOUR HAND UP NEXT
    21:54:35Cyndi-FOPalace has history
    21:54:36LorrieInity is right on the money!!
    21:54:38BillieI have three IRC channels...and I assure you there is a sense of history
    21:54:47Mark-Vardell*shutting up now* lol
    21:54:54D--Heltonwhy couldn't the same type of order exist as in a f2f group?
    21:54:55kathyI did comment Dr.Suler....said chatting was here to stay because everyone (business/school, etc.) is using it now
    21:55:04JOINJoeni-Jones has joined.
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    21:55:21Charlie-SeashoreThis is exactly like my experience the first night I met Edie's (wife) parents
    21:55:30JOINJim-Jarvis has joined.
    21:55:32Cyndi-FOJohn -- maybe introduce a topic yourself and give us 10 minutes to hash out :D
    21:55:33Stacy-HornCyndi -- I can go back and read conversation that took place since the place began?
    21:55:37Gil-LevinI forgot what I was going to say when I said HAND. We have moved on.
    21:55:39Gayla-NovitskyDhelton: lack of enforcement?
    21:55:49Cyndi-FONot ALL conversations (but can you do that offline?)
    21:55:58JohnSulerTOPIC: CAN CHAT BE USED FOR PSYCHOTHERAPY?
    21:56:00IDLE
    21:56:04LorrieSense people feel free to be themselves without retribution its also interferes with their sense of order
    21:56:07Cyndi-FOIn fact, what conversations can you go back and review in "real life?"
    21:56:09River!YES
    21:56:21Stofleyes
    21:56:48MarthaAinsworthYes! It worked for me.
    21:56:50Billiethat is the crux....define psychotherapy?
    21:56:58stormchat can be used for test-based therapy, one to one or groups that are moderated
    21:57:00IDLEValerie-Hart has left.
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    21:57:00JohnGroholChat can be used to help people with emotional or relationship problems, certainly. I'd be hard pressed to automatically call it psychotherapy, though.
    21:57:02Cyndi-FOI'm a layman John. But it seems chat can only be used effectively if combined with f2f
    21:57:07dora-weaverhand
    21:57:15InityWhy not? I think that it perfectly can be used for that. I like to share my problems in chats with close friends - why not to chat with psychotherapist.
    21:57:26StofleA therapeutic relationship can be formed in a chat room
    21:57:31Stacy-HornIn real life there are structures in place for keeping records of the town,city, etc.
    21:57:58MarthaAinsworthI'm looking for a url of a transcript of a chat between a psychotherapist and a patient that was sent to me...
    21:58:08LorrieRespect comes from time spent or social rules. There are no social rules in cyber.
    21:58:35Cyndi-FOnot true lorrie -- there are a ton of chat etiquette rules
    21:58:38Stacy-HornI am not anti-online communities. I run one one. I started it in 1989.
    21:58:55BillieLorrie there are social rules...ask anyone banned from a channel
    21:58:59RiverA lot of therapy can be had in just being able to vent emotions to a listener..Is that not therapeutic??
    21:59:01MarthaAinsworthUpon reading it you would certainly have to call it therapeutic. Goes way beyond emotional support or "counseling" (whatever that is)
    21:59:03LorrieHow do you enforce them?
    21:59:18Cyndi-FOKathy -- I don't disagree with you, but I am not sure I would call that professional therapy
    21:59:28Cyndi-FOthat's what we call friendship
    21:59:31AngeLI agree 100 percent with kathy....... we are all there for each other
    21:59:43Cyndi-FOLorrie -- they are enforced like many things -- via peer pressure
    21:59:45Stacy-Horn(Speaking as a non-therapist.)
    21:59:49jansterstacy, you just seem to prefer asynchronous to synchronous communication :) there are many kinds of community history, not all of which are archived
    21:59:49JOINM-Fenichel has joined.
    22:00:03D--HeltonJohn (or other researchers), where do you think research is headed regarding this broad topic?
    22:00:07Cyndi-FOSo people don't do it often : )
    22:00:09InityI moderate four conferences and run IRC channel :) These are true communities of people... friends.
    22:00:11MarthaAinsworthCyndi, therapists work with patients online every day. It's not theoretical, it happens daily... people get real help.
    22:00:12Stofleonce you've done it, you see the problems you would think that would prevent psychotherapy from happening just aren't there.
    22:00:12Chat GuyI don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
    22:00:28JohnSulerI wonder if chat communities are therapeutic?
    22:00:34stormto call it psychotherapy invites comparisons to f2f therapy. text-based therapy has it own set of advantages and disadvantages and con NOT be compared to f2f therapy
    22:00:45LorrieI don't see it. Read how this is going. No one is obeying the "rules" set out just a few minutes ago.
    22:00:58InityWhat do you think about trying to heal the Internet-Addiction On-Line?
    22:01:13JohnSulerI can't define psychotherapy, but I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!
    22:01:26Electra(one more example of herded ferrets??)
    22:01:37Stacy-HornI see no reason for agreeing on definitions in order to begin to look at how people communicate online and try to understand and use it.
    22:01:42Cyndi-FObecause lorrie -- sometimes it's also good to allow a room to define it's own pace
    22:01:47Gayla-NovitskyJohnSuler: LOL
    22:01:48LorrieExactly!
    22:01:54JohnSuler(I think we've dispensed with the hand raising format)
    22:01:54Riverlog off and snail mail us when your cured Inity
    22:02:03Mark-Vardelllol john grohol.....hmmm you know i really think that a therapist before he or she can really begin to "help" online is to fully immerse themselves in the nuances of chat rooms and internet communication before anything can happen
    22:02:06JohnSuler(I sorta like the free-for-all myself!)
    22:02:11Cyndi-FOwell stacy -- I see a huge difference between casual chat and actual therapy
    22:02:24Billieto compare f2f to online is to compare apples to oranges
    22:02:26LorrieSurvival of the most persistent?
    22:02:32Cyndi-FOhee hee lorrie
    22:02:39StofleMark - that's a neccessary competency.
    22:02:41Cyndi-FOor the fastest typer!
    22:02:46Mark-Vardelli think therapist consider online therapy should they themselves avoid the "newbie syndrome"
    22:02:48M-FenichelI'm wondering whether there's both "chat *for* therapy", and chat *as* therapy. Research always shows that people go first to friends and family before going out to a professional office....
    22:02:57MarthaAinsworthCyndi, there are a lot of other options in between casual chat and f2f therapy!
    22:03:12Tomit's the survival of the most adaptable, isn't it?
    22:03:23SusanIs the conference still going on?
    22:03:34Cyndi-FOAgreed Martha -- and online chat in combination with other things might be considered a viable form of therapy
    22:03:37LorrieMickey? You still here?
    22:03:53Gayla-NovitskyM-Fenichel: the contact with cyberfriends can certainly take the place of contact with rl friends
    22:03:55JohnSuleryes, Susan, if you want to stretch the definition of "conference"!
    22:04:01Cyndi-FObut online chat as the only form of therapy ... I would label that therapist a quack
    22:04:09stormwhen online is combined with f2f, there is less room for projection and transference
    22:04:42JohnSulerI hate you for saying that Storm!! (LOL)
    22:04:43LorrieYes, the most adaptable but the most adaptable without running over your fellow man is the "IDEA"
    22:04:44JOINBrain has joined.
    22:04:58stormcalling online therapy invites comparisons to f2f therapy
    22:05:00IDLE
    22:05:02RiverSo its a new field..it will evolve
    22:05:07Cyndi-FOok -- so how does a therapist know when an online person is lying about themselves?
    22:05:13Stacy-HornI run an online service and I've found the ftf element is crucial to preserving community. In a recent poll, 83% said they get together with other people who use my service (it's called Echo).
    22:05:25Cyndi-FOand if you don't know basic facts, how can you help them?
    22:05:39stormtext-based therapy has it own set of advantages and disadvantages and can NOT be directly compared to f2f therapy, imho
    22:05:40Judy-KraybillForgive the newbie question: But what is LOL?
    22:05:41JohnSulerYES, STACY!
    22:05:49Chat GuyI don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
    22:05:56tracy55i think it's too easy to respond to the symptom and not the real problem in online counseling. especially if someone has dysfunctions related to lack of empathy in early life. the healing is usually nonverbal.
    22:05:57Cyndi-FOLOL=laughing Out Loud
    22:06:00LEAVEAngeL has left.
    22:06:01IDLE
    22:06:04Cyndi-FOor Lunatics On Line
    22:06:07LEAVECharlie-Seashore has left.
    22:06:13Gayla-Novitskysometimes the lie is also meaningful
    22:06:31Cyndi-FObut not if you don't know parts of the truth Gayla -- so it would seem
    22:06:39JOINCharlie-Seashore has joined.
    22:06:46Cyndi-FOno...but there are clues you can pick up on
    22:06:47Judy-KraybillThanks Cyndi...
    22:06:47Stacy-HornWhat does it mean when something someone says shows up italicized?
    22:06:56Cyndi-FOonline, you don't even know if they are male or female
    22:07:10Riveryou are being whispered to
    22:07:11Valerie-HartIsn't what a person perceives more important often than reality?
    22:07:11Cyndi-FOperhaps that they are whispering to you?
    22:07:14JohnGroholdora-weaver........... And that kind of research takes years to design, implement, and report on...
    22:07:20MarthaAinsworthAbsolutely JohnG... it's sort of beside the point!
    22:07:27Judy-KraybillStacy: Someone has whispered to you...
    22:07:55JohnGroholD-Helton....... Not enough is being done in this area... a bit here and there.
    22:08:02Cyndi-FOPeople have faked their own deaths online
    22:08:02Gayla-NovitskyCyndi: I'm really speaking outside my own experience here--but there are some papers I've seen about the characters people create in MUD's that don't agree with you!
    22:08:02JOINM--Fenichel has joined.
    22:08:05Stacy-HornThanks John and Judy!
    22:08:18D--Heltonany suggestions JGrohol?
    22:08:21dora-weaverJohn; I plan to be around a long time.
    22:08:21Mark-Vardelllol@stacy
    22:08:22JohnSuler..(the group seems to be flowing now... perhaps we are adapting to this environment?)
    22:08:27JohnGroholMarthaAinsworth........... Well, yes, it is to some degree. A therapist isn't a private investigator, nor should they try and be.
    22:08:37stormsocial science research in online issues is just starting to look at the effect of projection and transference in text-based relationships
    22:08:50SusanOne of the critical techniques I use in the therapeutic relationship is silence...just sitting there with the client. How would that take place or could it take place online?
    22:09:18Stacy-HornCyndi, you're talking about places where people are anonymous? Otherwise you know people's gender, etc.
    22:09:21StofleSusan... the same way...
    22:09:31JohnSuler..or going to the bathroom,right FO?
    22:09:33Cyndi-FOsilence online also creates a greater sense of paranoia (sp?)
    22:09:35Tom!
    22:09:48Stacy-HornSusan, you would have to do therapy online ... differently.
    22:09:51Gayla-Novitskyyou have to distinguish between lagging and deliberate silence
    22:09:52LorrieCould our resistance be mainly to something new and different?
    22:09:53MarthaAinsworth...therapists cost money... why would you waste money lying to them if you are in need of help? well, I guess some people would.
    22:09:55Cyndi-FOStacy -- the only way you know MY gender is if you were to call me on the phone this instant. LOL
    22:09:57D--Heltonsusan, you could type "silence" or "waiting"
    22:09:59JohnGroholD-Helton.......... Not really, these things take time, that's all.
    22:10:04Cyndi-FOlol john
    22:10:20Mark-Vardelli actually am amazed at the sublties that people pick up in chat tracy *smiles*
    22:10:22JohnSulerbye storm!
    22:10:22Chat GuyGoodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:10:54JohnSulerboy, is that ChatGuy dumb...
    22:10:54Cyndi-FO(typing "silence" or "waiting" kinda ruins the silent treatment -- I use that same technique dealing with reporters)
    22:10:58D--Heltonbye storm
    22:10:58Chat GuyGoodbye, D--Helton... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:11:10Gayla-Novitskythe name "Cyndi" gives us a valuable clue to your gender!
    22:11:25Cyndi-FOOk..that's different Stacy -- as I said, online in combo with other things is a different matter
    22:11:26JohnGroholyes, chat guy is kind of stupid... :-)
    22:11:26Chat GuyThe only thing which is really stupid in this world, JohnGrohol, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
    22:11:26JohnSulerreally, Stacy?...interesting!
    22:11:33Cyndi-FOright storm
    22:11:34BrainNot necessarily,
    22:11:43stormlet's do this again!!!
    22:11:46Valerie-HartIt would seem that the traditional methods of "observation" that we learned, especially in an initial session would have to be revised.
    22:11:56Cyndi-FOlol chat guy
    22:12:00stormthanks John S. by all
    22:12:03JohnSulerhe got ya there, John!!
    22:12:16LEAVEstorm has left.
    22:12:17LEAVEstorm has left.
    22:12:21JohnSulerbye storm!!!
    22:12:21Chat GuyGoodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:12:22Gayla-Novitskybye storm!
    22:12:22Chat GuyGoodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:12:22Billie<smile> you live and learn *wink*
    22:12:26JohnGrohol:-) Time for me to be going too... take care all and enjoy the chat.
    22:12:39tracy55about silence online...i think it's a great opportunity to explore projection. we encounter ourselves in the silences, with both chat and email.
    22:13:04Gayla-NovitskyStacy: I read your book last month, because your community sponsored Yvette Colon
    22:13:14Gayla-Novitskygoodbye john
    22:13:14Chat GuyGoodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:13:30LEAVEJohnGrohol has left.
    22:13:44LEAVEM--Fenichel has left.
    22:13:49Gayla-NovitskyChat Guy: you cannot get rid of me that easily
    22:13:51Mark-Vardellbyee John G ...
    22:13:51Chat GuyGoodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:13:58InityI've tired a lot. These refreshings are terrible... O, my eyes :~(
    22:14:01dora-weaverlorrie are you talking about the webboard?
    22:14:09jansterjohnsuler, lucky it's just a headache and not seizures :)
    22:14:10JohnSulerbtw...ChatGuy is a bot
    22:14:11BillieChat Guy is a bot...
    22:14:16Mark-Vardelllol chat guy
    22:14:21LEAVEpam-Richardson has left.
    22:14:28Cyndi-FOso I gathered! LOL
    22:14:30Lorrieyea the webboard
    22:14:30InityA stupid bot, even :))
    22:14:30Chat GuyThe only thing which is really stupid in this world, Inity, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
    22:14:32Billieoops...sorry John
    22:14:44Cyndi-FOthe hot cup of coffee through me off...but he's too polite to be real :P
    22:14:44Chat GuyThem java beans are goooooood!
    22:15:02InityIf I say "stupid", Chat Guy always sends the same comment :)
    22:15:02Chat GuyThe only thing which is really stupid in this world, Inity, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
    22:15:17Stacy-HornStorm! That's just what I discovered and it's part of the reason why I made such an effort to have the ftf element of Echo as strong as the online element. Less paranoia and projection with a strong ftf connection.
    22:15:20JohnSulerhe's rather predictable
    22:15:20Mark-Vardelllol inity
    22:15:21Gayla-Novitskytake care, Martha
    22:15:39JohnSulerTOPIC: CAN A BOT DO PSYCHOTHERAPY (!)
    22:15:44Cyndi-FOthere is a level of intimacy you can only get via online
    22:15:52Cyndi-FOlol john
    22:15:56LEAVEJim-Jarvis has left.
    22:16:03Gayla-NovitskyCyndi: YES!!!
    22:16:03BillieLOL JohnS
    22:16:14LEAVEKen-Norton has left.
    22:16:16Stacy-HornYes.
    22:16:19Cyndi-FObut true therapy (if there is such a thing) requires reading beyond the typed words
    22:16:21Tomyes, but it must be called robotherapy
    22:16:21jansterjohnsuler, ELIZA seemed to think so :)
    22:16:24Joeni-JonesI 've been quietly listening, as I am new here. But I did want to comment about Virtual and chat. It is very different then text only, and I think people respond differently in VR rather then text chat.
    22:16:40InityJohnSuler: You mean Elisa? Elisa was good psychotherapist! %)
    22:16:43Mark-Vardelllol tom
    22:16:44Cyndi-FOOk...I have a favorite scenario to share
    22:16:58Cyndi-FOA friend had a horrible relationship with his teenage daughter
    22:17:02Mark-Vardellon Pow Wow the robot voice is called Hal
    22:17:11Cyndi-FOthey fought all the time, she ran away often
    22:17:14JohnSulermy kids play with Eliza all the time... they like to curse at her
    22:17:29dora-weaverDo any of you guys use a webboard. You can chat on-line . I use it for classes. Many of my students seem to resist using the board. I don't know why.
    22:17:34LEAVED--Helton has left.
    22:17:45Cyndi-FOthrough this they managed to go online once
    22:17:47LEAVEMarthaAinsworth has left.
    22:17:55Joeni-Jones3Dimensional where you put an avatar on much as clothing
    22:17:57Stacy-HornPeople metaphorically "turn the machine off" in ftf relationships. They leave the room, don't call for a few days, etc.
    22:18:04Mark-Vardellfor the next class i am teaching we are learning to use WebCT dora
    22:18:05Cyndi-FOand now when they have BIG issues, they chat online -- that has really helped
    22:18:06Gayla-Novitskydora: I'm not familiar with the term..what is a webboard?
    22:18:15LEAVEStofle has left.
    22:18:36JohnSuleryes.. that's an interesting story, FO...it says a lot about online relationships
    22:18:54Gayla-NovitskyJoeni: sounds lovely, but where do you go to do it?
    22:18:54Stacy-HornWho is Martha Ainsworth? I recognize that name from somewhere.
    22:19:03JohnSulerstudents email me all the time,dora... might it be because a webboard is more public?
    22:19:41Gayla-NovitskyStacy: she is the creator of Metanoia
    22:19:45Cyndi-FObtw John, Palace was the bonding program for them :D
    22:19:50Stacy-HornCyithat's an important point to make. Distance can be a tool.
    22:19:56JohnSulercheck the program for the meeting, Stacy http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
    22:20:23JohnSuleras it is for lots of people, FO!
    22:20:26Stacy-HornWhat is Metanoia? (If that can be answered easily.)
    22:20:26Chat GuyI don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
    22:20:52Rivermetanoia is the OPPOSITE of paranoia
    22:21:24dora-weaverA webboard letts you set up conferences. You can send post as well as chat. You can also control who comes into the chat room.
    22:21:25Gayla-NovitskyStacy: easier to visit & see: www.metanoia.org
    22:22:28Cyndi-FOyou think offline (real life) will no longer exist?
    22:22:43LEAVEClay-Tucker-Ladd has left.
    22:22:54JohnSulerwhat's "real life" FO?
    22:23:06Tomwell, someone has to mind the pumps
    22:23:06Mark-Vardellbefore i go....my biz url is...http://members.tripod.com/~MarkVardell/index.htm
    22:23:11Gayla-NovitskyFO: naww, there'll always be a need for pizza delivery
    22:23:12Cyndi-FOreal life meaning offline life
    22:23:14Inity%))
    22:23:50JohnSulerwhat's "offline life" FO (LOL!)
    22:23:53Mark-Vardelland for anyone that has icq....my icq # is 13794588 main icq number
    22:24:14InityThere is no life offline. That's an existing. On-Line is LIFE. %) BTW, who have seen the "Net Worth" in Sliders TV series? ;)
    22:24:17Gayla-Novitskyhmmmm.....wetware modems installed at birth
    22:24:25Cyndi-FOhee hee Mark. Mine is 101299 (sign of a real geek)
    22:24:50JohnSulerprobably, Valerie
    22:25:06tracy55what about chat though for people who have a body/mind split though or are somewhat dissociated from their bodies and feelings?
    22:25:16Gayla-NovitskyValerie: only if they engage an interest of another participant
    22:25:21Mark-Vardelllol cyndi swl
    22:25:23Brain70's question=what's your sign, 90's question=What's your ICQ number
    22:25:30JohnSulerHas anyone tried to do group therapy/counseling with chat?
    22:25:34Cyndi-FOlol Brain!!!!!!
    22:25:38InityThis "Net-Worth" is about the world divided to on-liners and off-liners...
    22:25:48Cyndi-FOIs that BRAIN from Palace?
    22:25:48Stacy-HornInteresting question, Tracy.
    22:25:50Riverhi ya Brain
    22:26:04Valerie-HartTime to go, bye all
    22:26:04Chat GuyGoodbye, Valerie-Hart... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:26:06Gayla-Novitskytracy: there are certainly plenty of physically disabled people online
    22:26:24Gayla-Novitskybye valerie
    22:26:24Chat GuyGoodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:26:34Riveronline is a perfect medium for the handicapped
    22:26:35Brainyes, shhh, I'm slumming
    22:26:58LorrieGayla - How do you know they are physically disabled?
    22:27:01Cyndi-FOwelcome brain : )
    22:27:06Gayla-NovitskyJohn: I know that there are some who do it
    22:27:12tracy55effects of chat depend a lot on the individual. those who hide in words have a great cover here...it reinforces their neurosis....for those who are shy in the outer world, the net is as they say, "the revenge of the introverts"
    22:27:14Joeni-Jonesback .. sorry I got dropped by my ISP
    22:27:18Riveryou don't..thats why its perfect
    22:27:25Billie683082 the sign of a real geek <smile> is mine
    22:27:29Cyndi-FOexactly river
    22:27:50JohnSulerrevenge of the introverts...funny!
    22:27:53Cyndi-FOin fact, I've known two people on line who I later learned were in wheel chairs
    22:27:56Gayla-NovitskyLorrie: by report...of course you can have fraud online or offline
    22:28:13JohnSulerwelcome back, JJ
    22:28:21BrainThe Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth, well as a meek representative, we don't want it
    22:28:26Riverthe Net can often act as "training wheels" for people desiring to get over..whatever..and join offline society
    22:28:30Cyndi-FOOne told me online gave a new sense of freedom in meeting people
    22:28:31Mark-Vardelllol billie thanks would love to add you....liked your comments on the mailing lists :-)
    22:28:37InityThe sign of real geek is having an ICQ number? Where is your geek-code, Billie? <g>
    22:28:43Cyndi-FOlol brain!!!!
    22:28:51Stacy-HornIt's been my experience that *over time* people are the same online as they are in person.
    22:28:55Cyndi-FOInity...the sign of a geek is having a really LOW icq number
    22:28:57Gayla-NovitskyRight, River
    22:29:16dora-weaverlorrie do you have my webboard address? If so give it out.
    22:29:20Cyndi-FO(agrees with River)
    22:29:42Stacy-HornPeople can't help being themselves. (Over time.)
    22:29:56InityCyndi, I don't think so... I think that there are some more important signs of geekiness :)
    22:30:00IDLEMichael-Fenichel has left.
    22:30:14tracy55john, i've been in an online therapy group using chat. an online therapy group of psychotherapists, no less. it works well only if very structured. when not structured right, someone usually feels deeply hurt or overwhelmed.
    22:30:15JohnSulerinteresting... whenever I'm in chat, I feel an urge to "play"
    22:30:17Cyndi-FOI don't know Stacy -- I've seen people put up a charade for a long time online
    22:30:24Billiethanks Mark
    22:30:37Gayla-NovitskyBut Inity, in cyberspace no one can see your pocket protector
    22:30:46RiverChat is very Play filled for me
    22:30:49JohnSulerinteresting, Tracy... how is it structured?
    22:31:11Mark-Vardellno problem billie ....thanks back too
    22:31:16tracy55what is it that leads us to be playful and childlike in chat anyway? It so easily is regressive.
    22:31:17Stacy-HornIt's true Cyndi, but most people don't. (Not where I go anyway.)
    22:31:32JohnSuler(I think we've had a few people leave this meeting because they felt overwhelmed)
    22:31:46BillieJohnS ...I feel the same...brings out the play
    22:32:06tracy55John, the group I was in was short term for 3 months. The primary structure focused on one person a week, taking turns, and was by mailing list. But we had some chats as well.
    22:32:06JohnSulerI think chat requires flexible and strong cognitive filters
    22:32:11Tomor underwhelmed
    22:32:11BrainIn cyberspace no one can hear you scream, unless you upload it
    22:32:31InityGayla-Novitsky : you can see it on my photo on my page... on index :))) http://inity.junik.lv
    22:32:35Mark-Vardelli also find cyberplay refreshing in it's own way...think of the level of imagination one gets in touch with
    22:32:49Stacy-HornI would think play very useful for therapy. (Again, I am not a therapist.)
    22:32:49jansterjohnsuler, i'm finding the refresh business tiring for sure
    22:32:50River)scream.wav
    22:33:18Tomyes, refresh sucks
    22:33:18JohnSulerTom, what do you think about chat?
    22:33:32JohnSulerlol, Riv!
    22:33:43BrainThere would be a tendancy for people to "read" far too much into a conversation
    22:33:53JohnSulerrefresh indeed is annoying
    22:33:56Tomohoh...pressure...
    22:33:57Cyndi-FOlol brain...you always have a good reply
    22:33:58BillieI LOVE the pocket protector
    22:33:59Stacy-HornOkay, I'm off! (I can see I am the only tv fan here- I would never have scheduled a chat tonight -- Golden Globe Awards and X Files!)
    22:34:09River"read" or project??
    22:34:18JohnSulerit really is giving me a headache
    22:34:20Jeff-GutermanBye all, gotta go. Thanks JohnS, an interesting experience.
    22:34:20Chat GuyGoodbye, Jeff-Guterman... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:34:32JohnSulerbye Stacy!!
    22:34:32Chat GuyGoodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
    22:34:54LEAVEJeff-Guterman has left.
    22:34:57RiverYes FO...I think so
    22:35:06Brainwell, make assumptions about the other person, since