CHAT TRANSCRIPT - Jan. 24, 1999

20:45:28	JOIN	JohnSuler has joined.
20:45:36	Mark-Vardell	well cyndi this starting to feel like a regular chat rooms ....hope the adults come soon LOL
20:45:40	tracy55	>:-P
20:45:42	JohnSuler	Hello all!
20:45:43	janster	cyndi, they have training sessions for hosts on AOL?
20:45:46	Cyndi-FO	Aski!
20:46:01	kathy	uh oh the boss is here. *grabbing seat in back of classroom, behaving now ...*
20:46:08	Cyndi-FO	they used to -- that was about 3 years ago
20:46:12	Mark-Vardell	oops one of the adults is here *just kidding* hiya John S
20:46:48	JohnSuler	Hiya FO!
20:47:17	janster	waves to John
20:47:17	Cyndi-FO	John -- the program wouldn't let me sign on as just FO : (
20:47:29	JOIN	mackie has joined.
20:47:43	JohnSuler	oh, that's a bummer, FO!
20:47:46	Cyndi-FO	(I will survive the humiliation of using my real name )
20:48:11	kathy	so mark? what makes an adult when chatting online? someone with no humor? pressure ... *grin*
20:48:17	JohnSuler	I see you all have been experimenting with smileys!
20:48:24	Mark-Vardell	lol cyndi...what is FO stand for anyway?
20:48:30	LEAVE	mackie has left.
20:48:50	tracy55	:-P
20:48:50	Mark-Vardell	lol kathy
20:48:57	kathy	don't tell him cyndi...ask him what his 3 dots mean first!!
20:49:01	IDLE
20:49:06	Cyndi-FO	but I've heard lots of good guess! (my favorite being Fuzzy Otter)
20:49:23	Mark-Vardell	lol@kathy
20:49:28	Cyndi-FO	his 3 dots means he's cybering!
20:49:57	JOIN	Gayla-Novitsky has joined.
20:50:00	JohnSuler	isn't that whisper notation interesting?
20:50:05	tracy55	(::()::)
20:50:21	Mark-Vardell	i will just be over there ------------------------------->
20:50:26	JOIN	Stofle has joined.
20:50:29	JohnSuler	it more closely simulates in-person conversation
20:50:37	Cyndi-FO	very interesting -- now we know when people are talking behind our backs :D
20:50:50	Cyndi-FO	lol Mark
20:51:04	tracy55	:->
20:51:06	janster	the whispering here is 1 degree less informative than f2f: here we don't know to whom the person is whispering, f2f we would see it
20:51:16	Cyndi-FO	how so John?
20:51:22	kathy	oops? Dr.Suler...when a whisper is sent, those dots indicate such? oops...if so, I owe an apology to Mark.
20:51:33	Mark-Vardell	cyndi i am looking forward to this...i have been looking at chat rooms a lot this past year
20:51:45	JohnSuler	you can see that someone is whispering, but you don't know what's being said
20:51:48	JOIN	Clay-Tucker-Ladd has joined.
20:51:52	Cyndi-FO	(it's impolite in-person to whisper to others while in a group)
20:51:54	tracy55	:-&
20:52:06	kathy	it stimulates conversation too
20:52:09	Cyndi-FO	this should be fun Mark!
20:52:16	tracy55	that's tongue tied :-&
20:52:18	JohnSuler	(you also don't know WHOM the person is whispering to
20:52:25	Mark-Vardell	apology to me John ....howcome?
20:52:35	Gayla-Novitsky	Some chats actively discourage whispering
20:52:43	Cyndi-FO	lol tracy
20:52:57	Mark-Vardell	well at least interesting cyndi *smiles*
20:53:00	tracy55	my lips are sealed :-X
20:53:10	Cyndi-FO	I've not been to a chat that discourages whispering
20:53:44	Cyndi-FO	my god...what do people do for cyber if they can't whisper!
20:53:45	Mark-Vardell	private conversations are consistent in all the chat rooms i have seen
20:54:03	Mark-Vardell	SWL @ cyndi
20:54:24	janster	i've never seen a chat where you could tell someone was whispering (unless they made a typo !)
20:54:27	JOIN	Dr--Mike has joined.
20:54:31	Gayla-Novitsky	Cyndi--I've seen meeting-format chats that do; also some of the hosted chats ask you not to whisper to the host
20:54:42	tracy55	undecided :-\
20:54:57	JohnSuler	hello Michael!!
20:55:00	kathy	well? mark started the whispering...he should be chastised.
20:55:05	tracy55	speaking with forked tongue :-W
20:55:07	Stofle	:0)
20:55:11	JOIN	dora-weaver has joined.
20:55:23	Gayla-Novitsky	tracy: lol
20:55:28	Mark-Vardell	brb
20:55:36	Cyndi-FO	ok...not whispering to a host isn't uncommon -- they can get swamped
20:55:37	JOIN	Jeff-Guterman has joined.
20:55:39	Dr--Mike	Hi, just checking in!
20:55:46	Cyndi-FO	I take it this is a censored chat?
20:55:51	tracy55	big laugh :-D
20:56:04	JohnSuler	censored, FO?
20:56:12	Cyndi-FO	I didn't read the destructions...hee hee
20:56:33	dora-weaver	hello
20:56:34	JOIN	arnie has joined.
20:56:36	tracy55	whoops, that didn't work. here's devilish wink ;->
20:56:36	Gayla-Novitsky	What are your rules, John?
20:56:48	JOIN	TR3-Blondie has joined.
20:57:00	TR3-Blondie	evening All
20:57:10	Cyndi-FO	when you type the S word it keeps my post from appearing
20:57:10	JohnSuler	Hi TR3!
20:57:15	JOIN	JohnGrohol has joined. (Chat Manager)
20:57:25	JohnSuler	rules, GN?
20:57:27	Cyndi-FO	now that's annoying
20:57:30	TR3-Blondie	Hey John! hi hi hi to ALL!
20:57:33	JohnGrohol	Expletives aren't allowed... evening all!
20:57:36	Stofle	Evening John
20:57:49	tracy55	ok, enough talking to myself. hello all.
20:57:51	TR3-Blondie	oops should I have my REAL name in here too? (I don't mind)
20:57:54	JohnSuler	Hi John!
20:58:21	Cyndi-FO	TR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:58:27	LEAVE	Dr--Mike has left.
20:58:38	TR3-Blondie	hiya tracy! :)
20:58:45	Cyndi-FO	Looks like I can't even type it in whisper John
20:58:46	JOIN	Michael-Fenichel has joined.
20:58:56	TR3-Blondie	FOOOOOO hey GF! HUGGZ
20:59:05	JohnSuler	really cramps your style, eh FO?
20:59:17	Cyndi-FO	I wonder what other words are censored (evil grin)
20:59:25	kathy	cyndi...if you need to type the S word..just misspell it...I mean sometimes you just have to say it! *grin*
20:59:33	JOIN	kloe has joined.
20:59:44	TR3-Blondie	LOL @ John S
20:59:44	Cyndi-FO	well, it's difficult to talk about chat and not talk about relationships
20:59:48	JohnSuler	let's give it another 5 minutes or so before we "official" start
20:59:49	Gil-Levin	Right. John Suler's name is ot on the whisper list.
21:00:01	JOIN	Dick has joined.
21:00:15	JOIN	Inity has joined.
21:00:19	Jeff-Guterman	good point FO
21:00:27	dora-weaver	Is this a test in patience? If so I am failing.
21:00:37	kathy	*grabs a seat next to cyndi* let's try it! you go first ... I'm a follower ..
21:00:38	JohnSuler	my name isn't on the whisper list?
21:00:39	TR3-Blondie	did he block himself out whispers Gil? hehe
21:00:42	Inity	Hello from Russia for everyone :)
21:01:03	Cyndi-FO	besides, it's unbelievable to think that the s word constitutes something worth censoring
21:01:09	Gayla-Novitsky	It is on my whisper list (>)
21:01:13	Cyndi-FO	greetings Inity!
21:01:16	TR3-Blondie	PRIVET Inity! kok dilah?
21:01:23	Cyndi-FO	cockroach (just testing. LOL)
21:01:23	JohnSuler	Hello inity!
21:01:25	Mark-Vardell	ib....John does this have a way to log this session???
21:01:29	kathy	wonder what happens at the stroke of 9? someone slams a gavel down?
21:01:43	JOIN	River has joined.
21:01:52	Jeff-Guterman	Maybe I am slow, no I Am slow, but which "s" word...forget it!
21:01:54	Inity	Excellent :) 4-56 AM in St.Petersburg... :)
21:01:58	River	Good Evening Everyone
21:02:05	JohnSuler	hey River!
21:02:49	TR3-Blondie	Reeevah Baybee! hey there
21:02:50	Inity	Hi Dick - long time no see? :))
21:03:42	LEAVE	Foxylady has left.
21:03:44	JOIN	Tom has joined.
21:03:45	JOIN	pam-Richardson has joined.
21:03:59	Tom	hello
21:04:24	TR3-Blondie	Dick.. you in Europe or ..?
21:04:38	TR3-Blondie	hi to all who just arrived
21:04:43	Dick	Europe. Latvia.
21:04:48	Mark-Vardell	hmmmm scrolling back is a bit difficult with the refresh
21:04:53	Foxylady	hello all
21:04:55	JOIN	Lorrie has joined.
21:05:09	TR3-Blondie	ahh by Lithuania and Estonia :) Gotcha
21:05:09	Cyndi-FO	Hi Foxylady
21:05:17	TR3-Blondie	hi Foxy L!
21:05:18	pam-Richardson	thank-you Hi
21:05:23	JohnSuler	... a few more minutes until we "start"
21:05:31	Mark-Vardell	btw hiya Michael F....nice to see you on real time chat :-)
21:05:37	River	Hi FoxyL
21:05:53	JohnSuler	A suggestion: Keep open a browser window containing the meeting program: http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
21:05:55	Dick	TR3-Blondie: right ;)
21:05:55	Lorrie	Mickey?
21:06:19	Foxylady	good to see Riv again and TR-3 and Cyndi....cool!
21:06:26	TR3-Blondie	hi pam et al
21:06:27	dora-weaver	Hi Lorrie: Lorrie from Semo?
21:06:32	JOIN	mjpphd has joined.
21:06:43	Dick	Any ideas about scrolling back with refresh 5? Except for switching to 60?
21:06:54	kathy	yes I have this bookmarked....I'm popping in an out cause I'm constantly booted...darn!
21:07:03	Lorrie	Yea, Lorrie from SEMO
21:07:10	Mark-Vardell	*getting out my notepad and sharpened pencils* lol
21:07:11	Cyndi-FO	sounds good....I'm taking a break
21:07:20	JOIN	Martha has joined.
21:07:33	Judy-Kraybill	Hi mjp!
21:07:54	mjpphd	Hi Judy!
21:08:36	River	I want to know where my avatar went?
21:08:52	M--Fenichel	Hi Mark, all, sorry I'm on the list twice since going back and forth a page! Just one me, though.
21:08:52	JOIN	Tammy has joined.
21:08:59	dora-weaver	Lorrie: I am glad to see, hear, or experience you.
21:09:07	Mark-Vardell	hello again Michael Fenichel ...nice to see online ...in real time *smiles*
21:09:09	JohnSuler	there will be some structure, yes Jeff
21:09:27	Jeff-Guterman	k
21:09:28	Lorrie	Nice to "cyber" with you too
21:09:43	M--Fenichel	Nice to be here, with and without structure. Here's a virtual toast! :-)
21:09:56	Dick	Gayla-Novitsky: OK, but I've my 1600x1280 locked by rendering on another machine... having only 800x600 here... which doesn't get much on screen,,, :(
21:09:58	Lorrie	What is on the agenda?
21:11:04	IDLE
21:11:18	Inity	Hi Boar :)
21:11:22	JohnSuler	*A suggestion: Keep open a browser window containing the meeting program: http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
21:11:26	Mark-Vardell	lol Michael F *toasting back*
21:11:37	Gayla-Novitsky	Dick: yiiiii,that IS a nuisance
21:11:40	Boar	Hi Inity!=)
21:11:44	JohnSuler	(notice how the software doesn't let you repeat yourself?)
21:12:01	Mark-Vardell	lol john
21:12:18	Mark-Vardell	don't why it repeated some messages
21:12:31	JohnSuler	WE HAVE AN EXCELLENT GROUP OF PEOPLE HERE!
21:12:40	janster	mark vardell just did repeat himself (twice at least)
21:12:43	Inity	What a silence?...
21:12:51	M--Fenichel	Probably cause I'm a fan of toasting at such get-togethers!
21:12:53	JOIN	Valerie-Hart has joined.
21:12:54	JohnSuler	WE DO HAVE A GENERAL STRUCTURE FOR OUR DISCUSSION TONIGHT
21:12:56	TR3-Blondie	*waving helloooo to all*
21:13:29	JohnSuler	http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
21:13:53	Cyndi-FO	ok
21:14:00	JohnSuler	ANYONE CAN SPEAK AT ANY TIME
21:14:19	JohnSuler	IF NECESSARY, WE WILL MOVE TO A "HAND RAISING" FORMAT
21:14:40	Boar	Enjoy the silence =) depeche mode (c)
21:14:49	JohnSuler	WHAT'S IT LIKE BEING HERE?
21:15:00	JOIN	Charlie-Seashore has joined.
21:15:07	Tom	Does anyone have access to DSM V discussions?
21:15:13	JohnSuler	WHAT IS THIS STYLE OF COMMUNICATING LIKE.. PROS... CONS...
21:15:40	mjpphd	John - so far, this discussion seems slow.
21:15:51	Boar	No=) My real name is Sergey
21:16:01	Martha	Feels a little more "present" than e-mail; to coincide in time, if not in space!
21:16:15	tracy55	what is it about chat that causes many of us to regress and act childlike?
21:16:29	Inity	IRC Rules forever :))
21:16:34	River	But less "present" than avatar type chats
21:16:36	JohnSuler	yes, "presence
21:16:37	Dick	Re: Gayla-Novitsky: if only you _CAN_... here lies a difference between IRC and web-chats like this one.
21:16:37	Jeff-Guterman	Didn't like idea of chat software not being realtime (refreshing), but that is okay and it seems robust, so I like it
21:16:53	kloe	I prefer one on one chat
21:17:03	Lorrie	No other way to get the attention we experience in other conversations
21:17:12	Gayla-Novitsky	Dick: I'm not sure what you mean
21:17:13	JOIN	Stephen has joined.
21:17:13	Mark-Vardell	how so river?
21:17:17	dora-weaver	I notice that the lag time is causing me to experience some anxiety or some impatience. I also notice that I am experiencing a little paranoia.
21:17:17	Inity	These refreshing are annoying :(
21:17:24	janster	john, with all due respect, this software is awkward compared to most chat systems i've seen, especially the upside down scrolling and the refresh thing
21:17:41	JOIN	Stephen-Lankton has joined.
21:17:48	Gayla-Novitsky	inity: I agree--the constant blinking blinking blinking
21:17:52	kathy	I think mIRC and PowWow (www.tribal.com) would be faster for chat ... little more complex at first, but it's quick to learn.
21:17:56	Michael-Fenichel	I inadvertently whispered...I think we need to adjust to the 10 second echo, to get into the "synchronous" rhythm!
21:18:00	Inity	Yes, this scrolling up --> down is very unusual...
21:18:06	TR3-Blondie	anonymity I think, Tracy..
21:18:10	Stofle	the upside down scrolling really threw me off.... I keep on trying to get to the bottom.
21:18:13	Cyndi-FO	actually, mine is refreshing fairly smoothly
21:18:16	JohnGrohol	I dislike software which requires client downloads.
21:18:17	River	How Many people here are Palace users?
21:18:17	Lorrie	Patience isn't listed as a virtual for no reason
21:18:20	Mark-Vardell	dora you will adjust and focus as any big chat room....selecting and focusing on the trend will become easier the more you do it
21:18:25	JohnSuler	yes, there are some disadvantages to Freechat... but it's advantage is that it's easy to use
21:18:25	Chat Guy	JohnSuler, I'm sorry to hear that...
21:18:27	Gayla-Novitsky	yes, I like mIRC too
21:18:42	Foxylady	I'm a palace user
21:18:47	dora-weaver	The silence brings back my memory of dealing with silence by clients when I was in graduate school.
21:18:48	Dick	Gayla-Novitsky: this thing virtually disables seeing whatever passes below the online screen, even if it's in the buffer (and in the browser, actually) because of that uncontrollable refresh
21:18:49	Inity	PowWow was my first personal communicator... I remember the great day of my FIRST chat-experience with it... it was like a miracle, two years ago.
21:18:50	JohnSuler	ahh..it's ChatGuy!
21:19:14	JOIN	Igoriy has joined.
21:19:15	Gayla-Novitsky	It sounds like Palace users get used to avatars very quickly
21:19:26	Mark-Vardell	inity you have other including myself pow wow users here :-)
21:19:27	janster	there are easy to use www chat clients that don't require plugins that are more like regular chats, certainly without refresh, and scrolling downwards
21:19:30	Cyndi-FO	yes Gayla
21:19:34	TR3-Blondie	we do Gayla :)
21:19:41	Cyndi-FO	actually, text only is hard to adjust to
21:19:43	River	having an avatar adds an entire visual level to chat
21:19:52	tracy55	At least with this set up we have few technical problems. With more efficient chat setups, you have to help others deal with technical issues...
21:19:53	River	an say a lot without even speaking
21:19:58	TR3-Blondie	it feels there is a "body" -- yes
21:19:59	Lorrie	Dora: try playing music in the background it will help calm you and makes it a little easier to focus
21:20:00	Cyndi-FO	I'm used to using "props" to express some ideas
21:20:04	JohnGrohol	nods
21:20:06	kathy	Gayla, at a cocktail party, you have body language to help you know someone, in chat rooms, you have their words and sometimes the words share more about the person than a real time meeting
21:20:10	Jeff-Guterman	Any Active Worlds users?
21:20:12	Foxylady	ok starting to get used to this strange way of communicating. I really prefer the Palace to chat in.
21:20:12	Gayla-Novitsky	Dick: I see that now--if you miss something, you are doomed here
21:20:16	Martha	I do notice that I'm just as agoraphobic in here as I would be in a cocktail party.
21:20:22	JohnSuler	....(conversation seems confusing in chat... takes time to develop an "eye" for reading it)...
21:20:22	Inity	I uninstalled PowWow some time ago, for it doesn't support russian language... :(
21:20:33	JohnGrohol	This is "minimalist chat."
21:20:35	Mark-Vardell	agree i like the avatar but also like the pureness of text only
21:20:41	JOIN	Electra has joined.
21:20:45	TR3-Blondie	I agree, FOxy
21:20:47	Cyndi-FO	I haven't used Pow since ICQ came along
21:20:47	Gayla-Novitsky	Kathy: I have bad hearing; at parties I often miss a lot of what's said, so I'm actually happier in chat
21:20:55	pam-Richardson	I am new at this could someone discuss the Palace and how it is the same or different then chat rooms?
21:21:04	Stofle	I'm used to the chat rooms on AOL.
21:21:07	dora-weaver	lorrie, do you get the same amount of lagtime when you use the webboard?
21:21:09	Mark-Vardell	lol gayla
21:21:09	Inity	I used Active Worlds, but it is so SLOW! :(
21:21:09	Gil-Levin	I find it hard to comment in a timely way because there are so many messages. This may because there are so many of us, not because of the environment. because we ar
21:21:12	Igoriy	About than talk, friends?
21:21:16	JohnSuler	....(criss-crossed conversations)....
21:21:24	JOIN	storm has joined.
21:21:34	janster	gayla, i have the same condition and i agree, chat is only place i can "hear" large groups
21:21:38	JohnSuler	hello storm!
21:21:50	Charlie-Seashore	THE ACTION HAS STOPPED
21:21:54	Martha	Although I'm uncomfortable in a crowd, when I worked with my therapist one on one in chat that was comfortable enough.
21:21:58	Mark-Vardell	hiya storm
21:21:58	Dick	Cyndi-FO: do you prefer ICQ chats over "pure IRC" clients? perhaps you're mostly using one-to-one style?
21:22:04	Gayla-Novitsky	GL: yes, it's tricky if you want to keep track of multiple threads
21:22:06	Cyndi-FO	<---picturing John on a Sofa scribbling notes while observing the group dynamics lol
21:22:12	TR3-Blondie	Palace has that log so I can follow chat as well as see "bodies"
21:22:13	Inity	ICQ became too much popular... but I don't like it.
21:22:25	Charlie-Seashore	I'm back - sorry for the shout
21:22:26	Michael-Fenichel	I work with kids who *love* chat rooms, and Kathy brings up an interesting point about say "visual" cues, like avatars. Perhaps they help you discriminate among the "noise" in busy cocktail, er, chat rooms.
21:22:27	JohnSuler	...(chat is often like a group free association)...
21:22:29	storm	hi all
21:22:38	Cyndi-FO	I like ICQ for many reasons -- but not for group chat
21:22:38	Lorrie	No, I have high-speed modem and trying to read it all is difficult
21:22:50	pam-Richardson	thank-you
21:23:14	Mark-Vardell	play is the binding thing in chat that i notice John
21:23:15	Inity	Our channel on IRC is a meeting place of friends - subscribers of the same newsgroup (conference).
21:23:21	Cyndi-FO	IRC was difficult for me, which is why I began with AOL
21:23:27	tracy55	since we don't have nonverbals to help us feel heard I notice that we say each other's names a lot in chat. sometimes it's kind of like a caress. Having our name typed by someone is an acknowledgement.
21:23:39	JohnSuler	yes... play... banter...
21:23:45	Gayla-Novitsky	(I'm going to have to take a look at Palace)
21:23:47	Boar	Inity, are you don't like ICQ? =)
21:23:49	Jeff-Guterman	Anyone use CUSeeMe?
21:23:53	janster	IRC clients nowadays allow you to have some visual (color) cues, and even sound (wave files), but not really multimedia
21:23:53	TR3-Blondie	I found more "smut" feel to IRC and AOL.not meant to offend
21:23:57	Foxylady	the Palace is a good place to chat because you can create a room around you that fits whatever mood your in....like a beach, or forest, or mountains...its cool
21:24:01	Michael-Fenichel	Hi Storm, John, Gil ... And I love ICQ for real-time among a few friends or family.
21:24:16	Cyndi-FO	There were lots of non-smut places on AOL -- but you have to hunt them down : )
21:24:19	Mark-Vardell	yes and creativity is the positiveness in chat rooms i believe
21:24:26	LEAVE	Martha has left.
21:24:26	LEAVE	Igoriy has left.
21:24:28	TR3-Blondie	I USED to Jeff.. not even sure why I stopped
21:24:46	Lorrie	address for the palace?
21:24:50	Inity	Boar: or you haven't heard about this many times? I don't like ICQ. And, ICQ is huge security hole and "Big Brother's eye" in your computer :))
21:24:55	JOIN	MarthaAinsworth has joined.
21:24:57	TR3-Blondie	as an aside.. I tried AOL 5 or 6 yrs ago
21:24:59	Dick	Cyndi-FO: there are lots of IRC clients quite easy to setup... and easy to use, I believe. VIRC might be an example. ICQ'98 appears to be even more complicated.
21:25:10	Cyndi-FO	Every chat has it's own cache of gems -- it takes patience to find sometimes though
21:25:16	JohnSuler	hi Martha!
21:25:24	tracy55	In whatever chat setup, there's a big difference between going into an existing chat room and creating your own chat with invited participants.
21:25:37	JOIN	Billie has joined.
21:25:37	Cyndi-FO	Dick -- I confess, it's been 6 years since I tried IRC
21:25:38	pam-Richardson	yes I will have to check out the palace myself soon
21:25:39	Gayla-Novitsky	ICQ is now owned by AOL, I believe
21:25:44	Cyndi-FO	So I'm sure it's improved!
21:25:47	MarthaAinsworth	Hi - I was here before but I just decided I'd better add my last name!
21:25:49	Tom	!
21:25:58	Cyndi-FO	yes, AOL purchased ICQ
21:25:59	TR3-Blondie	yes Gayla.. yer right
21:26:03	Charlie-Seashore	I've been using chat for meetings of doctoral committees doing interim work with students as a means of saving money on conference calls. It is quite slow and a bit trying, but with practice it can work relatively efficiently. Each group has to get up to speed.
21:26:05	Mark-Vardell	lol martha :-)
21:26:06	Boar	hi Igoriy!=)
21:26:09	Cyndi-FO	WB Martha!
21:26:23	JOIN	Conrad-Newman has joined.
21:26:23	Stofle	I knew it was you, Martha.
21:26:32	JOIN	Doug-W has joined.
21:26:33	Lorrie	Mickey, turn the frames off and it is easier
21:26:34	janster	cyndi, they have GUI point&click clients for irc that make it a lot easier than the old command-line style
21:26:54	Inity	VIRC ? brrr... mIRC forever! Or even, IRC in Telnet session! ... I begin to hate GUI... Somebody present me new hard drive, please, then I'll set up Unix on my second machine which is without hard drive now :))
21:26:57	tracy55	I teach Internet chat and conferencing. Feel free to use class website: http://www.webwinds.com/irc/chat.htm
21:27:01	JohnGrohol	the IRC networks still suffer from lag, and a myriad of other problems, which keeps them less than reliable (IMO).
21:27:06	Gayla-Novitsky	Charlie: up to speed in terms of ease of using the software?
21:27:25	Gil-Levin	Charlie, your experience gives me hope :)
21:27:31	Cyndi-FO	lol...we have some serious geeks in here :D
21:27:55	janster	johngrohol, there are literally hundreds of different IRC nets now, large and small, domestic, international, specialized, private, tons of 'em
21:28:12	Gayla-Novitsky	MSN gave its chat-software IRC capabilities and it has been driving us nuts ever since
21:28:14	River	beside the refresh and inverted screen this isn't too terrible
21:28:26	JohnSuler	how are people finding this discussion so far?
21:28:29	JohnGrohol	I'm mainly talking about the larger, established public networks that most people still use.
21:28:32	Gayla-Novitsky	Tracy: I'll stop by!
21:28:36	Cyndi-FO	It takes incredible energy to move someone off of their favorite
21:28:44	Jeff-Guterman	Nice flow, John
21:28:50	Inity	I'm truing to understand, is here the difference between english- and russian-language chats......
21:29:04	JohnSuler	is anyone experiencing any difficulties?
21:29:26	Mark-Vardell	yes cyndi i noticed that too .... actually i have found the same level interaction on irc and yahoo as pow wow
21:29:32	Lorrie	Somehow I feel like I just got lost and winded up in Silicone Valley
21:29:33	Electra	oh my yes .. have had that fun with solid icq fans I tried to invite to Palace
21:29:33	Dick	JohnGrohol: it appears people are actually mostly using global IRC networks rather for wide-area communications... preferring small a la private nets for everyday use
21:29:38	pam-Richardson	I frequent a chat room where the people actual meet every month in a central location
21:29:46	M--Fenichel	Working real smooth, at 5 seconds per refresh....
21:29:59	tracy55	This chat...and many chats...are very much like big family dinner conversations where everybody's talking and yelling and hardly anyone's listening or responding.
21:30:02	Mark-Vardell	what really makes a chat room is the level and depth of the regulars there
21:30:03	JohnSuler	what are the features of chat that people like?
21:30:04	Boar	Igoriy Here minimum 3 persons from Russia =)
21:30:05	Jeff-Guterman	I am prone to wanna "stop time," and have people go one at a time and work through ideas....it takes time and patience on chat, though.
21:30:13	Cyndi-FO	lol Jeff...yes
21:30:32	LEAVE	M--Fenichel has left.
21:30:35	Boar	Igoriy go to www.xxlmusic.sp.ru =)
21:30:36	River	OK..People are chatting...regardless of the client
21:30:49	JOIN	KEVIN-GROLD has joined.
21:30:51	tracy55	With more than 5-6 people, it tends to become a free-for-all unless there's a means of focus.
21:30:52	dora-weaver	John; I misunderstood you. You suggested we talk about our chat experience. It seems as though most of us thought you meant technical problems. However, I thought you meant our psychological experiences.
21:30:58	janster	johnsuter, i like reading top to bottom! most recent stuff at bottom of scroll
21:31:00	IDLE
21:31:01	JohnSuler	yes, jeff,the discussion is not linear (reminds me of faculty meetings!)
21:31:05	River	whats better or different about cyber vs real life ??
21:31:07	pam-Richardson	people like the fact that they are judged by their comments instead of their looks
21:31:19	Electra	hi FO.. *s*
21:31:23	Igoriy	O, girls - as you here much!!!
21:31:26	Cyndi-FO	Wow...I saw my name followed by some expletives -- seems normal!
21:31:41	Inity	I feel psychological comfort chatting in my favorite program...
21:31:49	Foxylady	haha cyndi
21:31:54	JohnSuler	yes, I meant psychological experience of chat... which is linked to how the software is designed
21:31:58	River	Yes Pam Richardson...the physical doesn't matter
21:32:02	Billie	<smile> FO
21:32:34	LEAVE	Conrad-Newman has left.
21:32:34	Gayla-Novitsky	Conversational multi-tasking is fun!
21:32:41	Inity	I like to set my custom colors, sounds... to feel myself comfortable with chat...
21:32:44	River	there is also a large degree of physical safety too
21:32:54	Cyndi-FO	chat makes it easy to have a social life in an otherwise busy real life
21:32:55	Boar	Inity, you favorite program...is ICQ?=))
21:32:56	JohnSuler	it IS interesting how one feels at home in one's favored chat environment
21:33:01	Electra	why do people call it real life..rather than offline?
21:33:15	Billie	different cocktail parties different levels of comfort
21:33:17	Cyndi-FO	folks are so busy these days, it's exhausting to think of leaving the house
21:33:23	janster	johnsuter, i find myself having to work too hard to follow the flow of the conversation cause it's upside down, i don't like having to pay so much attention to the act of reading, rather than the content
21:33:23	pam-Richardson	I think that the anonymity of the whole chat whole has the greatest impact on the communication
21:33:29	JOIN	Ellen has joined.
21:33:30	JOIN	Richard has joined.
21:33:30	JohnGrohol	I don't think most programs and technologies think very much about the psychology of the user experience nearly as much as they should, especially things like chat...
21:33:33	KEVIN-GROLD	Anyone heard about LIVE Counseling Online?
21:33:37	D--Helton	Yes Cyndi I agree, with very little risk
21:33:38	Gayla-Novitsky	Electra: because "meat life" sounds yucky
21:33:43	Lorrie	The thing about chat rooms is that we can agree to talk about only one subject, but because their are no social rules everyone talks about whatever they want anyway.
21:33:47	JohnGrohol	Although that is thankfully changing more and more each year.
21:33:49	Mark-Vardell	agee cyndi....and a development of long term friendship....not any less than f2f
21:33:56	Inity	You mean there is life outside of Internet?! (c) R. Hayden
21:33:59	Cyndi-FO	little risk -- and also can be done on your terms
21:34:05	Cyndi-FO	lol Inity
21:34:10	Gil-Levin	I agree with Janster that this is hard work.
21:34:16	River	Not for some people Igo
21:34:19	Cyndi-FO	when you're ready or have time
21:34:24	Gayla-Novitsky	Keven: you mean the Doc in England ?Razziterri or whatever?
21:34:35	Inity	Boar: my favorite is mIRC for chatting
21:34:38	Mark-Vardell	lol inity
21:34:43	D--Helton	yes Cyndi, one can choose to ignore those don't want to respond to
21:34:44	Dick	JohnGrohol: customizable IRC clients with advanced GUI interfaces appear to be much more psychologically adaptive than 'traditional' chat programs
21:34:53	Cyndi-FO	But...being able to chat with people from all over the world is a real bonus
21:35:07	pam-Richardson	people will say things that they wouldn't necessary say to a person when first meeting in real life
21:35:17	River	John G..have you seen or used visual chats..ie Palace?
21:35:17	janster	gil, to me it seems counter intuitive to read a page bottom to top... makes me wonder if this is an experiment on purpose :)
21:35:19	Foxylady	yeah I heard about counseling on line. There is even a palace set up for it. But no one is ever there when I went.
21:35:22	Boar	Igoriy,Good luck
21:35:22	JohnGrohol	Dick............ Yes, but such client interfaces were not in the original implementation or design of IRC over a decade ago. Relatively new phenomenon...
21:35:26	KEVIN-GROLD	Gayla--this is different--i will send you the web page.
21:35:34	LEAVE	Igoriy has left.
21:35:39	MarthaAinsworth	Kevin, I've done it (as a patient)
21:35:42	Cyndi-FO	Personally, I don't see how counseling online can be effective
21:35:58	KEVIN-GROLD	http://www.1-800-therapist.com/event.html
21:35:58	MarthaAinsworth	sorry about the unintentional whisper
21:35:58	Boar	Hi Dick :)
21:36:00	IDLE	arnie has left.
21:36:00	Dick	JohnGrohol: OK, just like web chats.
21:36:00	D--Helton	the visual chat of Palace for example seems easier to keep up with as far as people's conversations
21:36:11	KEVIN-GROLD	Martha--what was it like?
21:36:14	Gayla-Novitsky	Kevin: thanks--I am building a database for my thesis
21:36:19	Dick	Hi Boar ;)
21:36:19	JOIN	Liz has joined.
21:36:41	JohnGrohol	"BetaChat" is in this program's name for a reason... this is not a commercial chat client... It has some aspects which are being worked on, and definitely the reading top to bottom is one of them.
21:36:46	D--Helton	perhaps I'm not as used to this medium
21:36:46	Cyndi-FO	All chat is confusing with initial experience
21:36:48	LEAVE	Liz has left.
21:36:54	Lorrie	With a one on one, on-line counseling can have benefits, but for more than one on one its too hard to have structure.
21:36:55	Gayla-Novitsky	Kevin: I think those are the phone referral people--Thanks for the info
21:36:56	kathy	why not cyndi? ever help a person with a problem on line? a therapist can do the same....
21:36:59	Mark-Vardell	one thing about anonimity .... profiles seems more and more elaborate on some chat programs...wonder if anonimity as a feature will pass soon
21:37:03	storm	chatting in a group is very different from using this for a one to one
21:37:04	Cyndi-FO	many who first try Palace are confused until they adjust
21:37:07	pam-Richardson	Gayla what is your thesis on?
21:37:13	MarthaAinsworth	Kevin - it was pretty profound
21:37:18	dora-weaver	address for Palace?
21:37:26	Cyndi-FO	Because it seems counseling requires an ability to see facial expressions
21:37:31	Inity	I like the ascetic IRC window. Not many funny buttons, I don't like these bright colors and colorful windows... I like IRC, it's ascetic. I like green letters on a black screen...
21:37:33	KEVIN-GROLD	Stofle--can you send me an email about your experience? grold@1-800-therapist.com
21:37:34	Cyndi-FO	or hear the tone of voice
21:37:36	kathy	*waving to liz from back of room* saved you a seat!
21:37:40	Boar	Dick: lv?=)
21:37:46	Cyndi-FO	http://www.thepalace.com
21:37:49	Mark-Vardell	for example as technology increases and we have video and voice capabilities too
21:37:54	storm	Gayla-Novitsky - what is your thesis?
21:37:56	Dick	Boar: mhm ;)))
21:37:58	D--Helton	thepalace.com is one place to get on dora
21:37:58	Cyndi-FO	perhaps online combined with f2f can be effective
21:38:01	JohnGrohol	D-Helton....... Yes, and no. I've spent a fair amount of time in a palace and found that sometimes the conversations were just as difficult to follow... and the balloons restricted long notes at one time...
21:38:08	Stofle	check out my web site at http://members.aol.com/stofle/index.htm
21:38:19	MarthaAinsworth	If you want to know more about therapy online you can check out my site http://www.metanoia.org/imhs/
21:38:25	Gayla-Novitsky	pam/storm: group counseling in cyberspace
21:38:27	Electra	http://www.thepalace.com/welcome/index.html
21:38:28	Cyndi-FO	right John...each chat has their quirks and limitations
21:38:45	MarthaAinsworth	Cyndi - for some people, having no visual contact makes it way easier to talk about hard things. that was my experience.
21:38:49	Mark-Vardell	yes cyndi
21:38:51	JohnGrohol	Cyndi............ Agreed. And we all have our personal preferences which aren't like to change any time soon! ;-)
21:39:01	Cyndi-FO	yes Helton -- I've killed people like you on Palace :P
21:39:25	D--Helton	ha ha cyndi
21:39:27	Electra	LOL FO!!!
21:39:35	Inity	Stofle: server says it's too busy ...
21:39:35	dora-weaver	Thanks Cyndi.
21:39:37	D--Helton	say it was me making long notes
21:39:38	Cyndi-FO	Martha -- are we talking about online counseling of people you've met f2f or total strangers?
21:39:41	Jeff-Guterman	I think active Worlds is excellent,although it is only available to PC users, no Macs...at http://www.counselingzone.com, we have our own virtual world called Genrica with animated, not static, avatars in a 3D environment.
21:39:57	Cyndi-FO	(just kidding Holton. hee hee)
21:40:00	storm	Gayla-Novitsky: group email or chat or both - counseling in cyberspace
21:40:17	pam-Richardson	it sounds very interesting Gayla, I want to do my thesis on the online chatting habits of college students
21:40:20	Stofle	sorry Inity :0(
21:40:22	tracy55	Some people like me prefer to write/talk slowly, in depth, many sentences. Others are geared to quick oneliners. Email mentality vs. chat mentality.
21:40:30	MarthaAinsworth	Cyndi - strangers. I hadn't met my therapist f2f when we worked online. (I later did.)
21:40:31	JohnSuler	WOULD YOU LIKE TO (1) SWITCH TO A HAND RAISING FORMAT, OR, (2) STAY IN THIS OPEN DISCUSSION?
21:40:45	Cyndi-FO	right tracy -- I belong to listserves because those allow greater depth
21:40:47	Inity	2, 2, 2...
21:40:56	Jeff-Guterman	(1)
21:41:01	LEAVE	KEVIN-GROLD has left.
21:41:01	Inity	Please, don't switch...
21:41:01	Gayla-Novitsky	Storm: what I'd like to do is chat, personally. I am including both types in the database portion
21:41:07	Lorrie	hand please
21:41:09	pam-Richardson	1
21:41:09	River	HOW about Q&A with hands John
21:41:12	Electra	hand raising format??
21:41:15	Richard	I haven't found the greater depth! What are listserves?
21:41:20	Gil-Levin	I think it would be less chaotic goals and high motivation.
21:41:21	Michael-Fenichel	John- I'd enjoy either...perhaps you'd "summarize" the first segment?Electra- How refreshing! I hear lots of people who consider "offline" to mean "on hold with tech support"! :-)
21:41:22	MarthaAinsworth	1
21:41:33	Inity	Switching to hand raising will kill all beauty of chat-conversation freedom...
21:41:44	Cyndi-FO	John....if there are specific topics you want to cover, how about leading the discussion?
21:41:54	Tom	I've had chats where "!" & ":)" (the ascii version, that is) were all I used...like 'huh-huh'
21:41:54	D--Helton	has anyone used counselingonline.com's Palace site?
21:42:03	Cyndi-FO	then moving to a new topic when ready?
21:43:01	JOIN	Stacy-Horn has joined.
21:43:07	LEAVE	Ellen has left.
21:43:09	JohnSuler	Then I'll call on the next HAND in line to present the next question or idea.
21:43:26	Inity	:(((
21:43:32	JOIN	Nexxie has joined.
21:43:32	LEAVE	Richard has left.
21:44:00	Stacy-Horn	Sorry I'm late, rehearsal for my band went late.
21:44:03	Michael-Fenichel	HAND
21:44:09	Electra	hi nexxie
21:44:23	JohnSuler	MICHAEL?
21:44:32	Gil-Levin	HAND We are talking about "What are the features of this chat environment?
21:44:33	Nexxie	Hi El
21:45:00	Foxylady	sorry, I got to go...byebye all.
21:45:00	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Foxylady... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
21:45:10	JOIN	AngeL has joined.
21:45:16	Michael-Fenichel	Quickie- I find it interesting, looking at the format, that in fact in Part 1 we did see "how it works" and actually move towards what it can be used for!
21:45:21	Cyndi-FO	by FL!
21:45:26	Stacy-Horn	Can someone fill me in on the current topic?
21:45:32	LEAVE	Foxylady has left.
21:45:42	Electra	hi angle
21:45:52	JohnSuler	OK... lets talk about the use of chat.HAND?
21:45:52	LEAVE	arnie has left.
21:45:54	AngeL	hello
21:46:15	JohnSuler	RIVER?
21:46:17	Mark-Vardell	Michael i don't know the use but i see the attraction to chat rooms
21:46:29	River	What do people think of the FUTURE of online chat???
21:46:33	Jeff-Guterman	I don't quite understand what you meant, Michael, that we have moved forward, that we have not, and/or that we should?
21:46:33	AngeL	hey Electra
21:46:34	Billie	Hand
21:46:37	Lorrie	Somebody needs a lot of attention. Isn't that right Inity?
21:46:43	River	How might it evolve??
21:47:34	D--Helton	I like going where "everybody knows my name" as they say
21:47:39	Cyndi-FO	think of chat as a communication tool...good for some things
21:47:42	kathy	hand
21:48:05	Michael-Fenichel	My observation was that we went beyond discussing technology, and there was a movement towards questions on chat, counseling, etc, online.
21:48:06	D--Helton	It's fun to talk to others in the comfort of my home and unwind about my day
21:48:10	Tammy	River ..I my self think that if chat is to become too popular people will stop feeling the way humans were meant to feel. It is too easy to become detatched
21:48:15	River	and good for more and more things as more people get wired??
21:48:17	tracy55	One feature of this chat is that if you walk away for 2 minutes you can't catch up with what you missed. The screen moves forward and you can't read more than one minute of what was before.
21:48:23	Gayla-Novitsky	Stacy: But don't you have more physical access to most of the people you want to talk to anyway?
21:48:58	Cyndi-FO	I think chat is here for the long haul River
21:49:00	JohnGrohol	I think the future is what you see here -- people finding chat communities, all using different technologies, that they enjoy best. . . That fit into their lives, their personalities, their ways of interacting... and then staying with them.
21:49:01	River	Good Point Tammy....but people who chat do get together in real life
21:49:17	Gil-Levin	HAND
21:49:22	Cyndi-FO	It may evolve and improve, but it has become as important as the telephone
21:49:35	River	and it can enhance our off line world
21:50:00	Michael-Fenichel	Jeff--Of course we move forward, but not equally all the time in terms of the technology, theory, or practice. I think chat for pure socialization fun is this generation's telephone and cb radio rolled into one! John G's right, we're all the future, whether we like this IRC or that one! :-)
21:50:01	JohnSuler	chat is an art form
21:50:04	Electra	uhmmm..whats a telephone??
21:50:05	Billie	Agrees with Inity and D--Helton
21:50:07	Gayla-Novitsky	and the telephone didn't dehumanize us
21:50:14	Cyndi-FO	Tammy -- chatting online hasn't replaced f2f
21:50:16	JohnSuler	... so I think people will also want it around
21:50:26	D--Helton	yes river, just like having a pen pal in England enhanced my world as a kid
21:50:28	storm	there are people that are involved online that are turned off by the multi-tasking needed for chat. it is not attractive to everyone
21:50:29	Cyndi-FO	lol Electra. the thing yer modem is hooked to
21:50:31	River	lol @ Electra
21:50:36	Stacy-Horn	I prefer non-realtime conversations. Like what happens on The WELL (and Echo).
21:51:11	Charlie-Seashore	What happened to Gil's hand?
21:51:16	River	Yes Stacy H..you can be more thoughtful in postings
21:51:18	Tammy	Cyndi but the way things are going with online chats it may
21:51:24	Stacy-Horn	Chat is good for light, conversation.
21:51:30	Billie	already made John continue
21:51:32	Mark-Vardell	relationship are formed online and as John Suler indicated f2f often really cements a relationship that began in a chat room
21:51:39	Judy-Kraybill	Teleconferencing on bridge lines is very comfortable and easy to use...
21:51:48	Billie	tossing you an extra "L"
21:51:51	River	Or ends it
21:51:52	tracy55	i think we need to differentiate one to one from group in regard to chat. very different experience.
21:51:55	Stofle	one on one chat can be quite meaningful.
21:51:59	JohnSuler	LET'S MOVE ON TO KATHY'S COMMENT/QUESTION
21:52:04	JOIN	Ken-Norton has joined.
21:52:17	D--Helton	yes Stacy, but I could see chat used by a therapist for group with structured rules up front
21:52:20	Mark-Vardell	i disagree there is play and light but i have seen ppls use chat for much deeper and meaning forms of support
21:52:36	Cyndi-FO	me too Mark
21:52:47	Cyndi-FO	and I disagree stacy -- there is a sense of history
21:52:57	D--Helton	yes mark I agree
21:52:58	Cyndi-FO	like with any community.
21:52:59	Inity	Moderating a chat is like a trying to herd ferrets... :)
21:53:04	Gayla-Novitsky	me too, Mark
21:53:06	Stacy-Horn	I only speaking generally, Mark.
21:53:17	River	lol inity
21:53:18	JohnSuler	yup, that's fer sure, Inity
21:53:21	Cyndi-FO	friend from Palace visited me in Seattle and we began reviewing "screen caps" the same way my family looks over photo albums
21:53:26	Billie	<smile> Inity
21:53:35	JohnSuler	KATHY, DID YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING?
21:53:37	kathy	lol Inity!
21:53:38	Mark-Vardell	yes i am constantly amazed at he history and sharing of life experiences by regulars of a room
21:53:40	Cyndi-FO	lol John
21:53:42	Lorrie	Seems to be a structure problem for groups. Everyone can speak whenever. No true sense of order.
21:53:56	JOIN	Susan has joined.
21:54:16	Stacy-Horn	Cyndi, again speaking generally but what chat service do you visit that has history? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying it's unusual.
21:54:20	River	SO, with structure and history it sounds like community?
21:54:34	JohnSuler	OKAAAY....GIL, I THINK YOU HAD YOUR HAND UP NEXT
21:54:35	Cyndi-FO	Palace has history
21:54:36	Lorrie	Inity is right on the money!!
21:54:38	Billie	I have three IRC channels...and I assure you there is a sense of history
21:54:47	Mark-Vardell	*shutting up now* lol
21:54:54	D--Helton	why couldn't the same type of order exist as in a f2f group?
21:54:55	kathy	I did comment Dr.Suler....said chatting was here to stay because everyone (business/school, etc.) is using it now
21:55:04	JOIN	Joeni-Jones has joined.
21:55:10	LEAVE	Dick has left.
21:55:21	Charlie-Seashore	This is exactly like my experience the first night I met Edie's (wife) parents
21:55:30	JOIN	Jim-Jarvis has joined.
21:55:32	Cyndi-FO	John -- maybe introduce a topic yourself and give us 10 minutes to hash out :D
21:55:33	Stacy-Horn	Cyndi -- I can go back and read conversation that took place since the place began?
21:55:37	Gil-Levin	I forgot what I was going to say when I said HAND. We have moved on.
21:55:39	Gayla-Novitsky	Dhelton: lack of enforcement?
21:55:49	Cyndi-FO	Not ALL conversations (but can you do that offline?)
21:55:58	JohnSuler	TOPIC: CAN CHAT BE USED FOR PSYCHOTHERAPY?
21:56:00	IDLE
21:56:04	Lorrie	Sense people feel free to be themselves without retribution its also interferes with their sense of order
21:56:07	Cyndi-FO	In fact, what conversations can you go back and review in "real life?"
21:56:09	River	!YES
21:56:21	Stofle	yes
21:56:48	MarthaAinsworth	Yes! It worked for me.
21:56:50	Billie	that is the crux....define psychotherapy?
21:56:58	storm	chat can be used for test-based therapy, one to one or groups that are moderated
21:57:00	IDLE	Valerie-Hart has left.
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21:57:00	JohnGrohol	Chat can be used to help people with emotional or relationship problems, certainly. I'd be hard pressed to automatically call it psychotherapy, though.
21:57:02	Cyndi-FO	I'm a layman John. But it seems chat can only be used effectively if combined with f2f
21:57:07	dora-weaver	hand
21:57:15	Inity	Why not? I think that it perfectly can be used for that. I like to share my problems in chats with close friends - why not to chat with psychotherapist.
21:57:26	Stofle	A therapeutic relationship can be formed in a chat room
21:57:31	Stacy-Horn	In real life there are structures in place for keeping records of the town,city, etc.
21:57:58	MarthaAinsworth	I'm looking for a url of a transcript of a chat between a psychotherapist and a patient that was sent to me...
21:58:08	Lorrie	Respect comes from time spent or social rules. There are no social rules in cyber.
21:58:35	Cyndi-FO	not true lorrie -- there are a ton of chat etiquette rules
21:58:38	Stacy-Horn	I am not anti-online communities. I run one one. I started it in 1989.
21:58:55	Billie	Lorrie there are social rules...ask anyone banned from a channel
21:58:59	River	A lot of therapy can be had in just being able to vent emotions to a listener..Is that not therapeutic??
21:59:01	MarthaAinsworth	Upon reading it you would certainly have to call it therapeutic. Goes way beyond emotional support or "counseling" (whatever that is)
21:59:03	Lorrie	How do you enforce them?
21:59:18	Cyndi-FO	Kathy -- I don't disagree with you, but I am not sure I would call that professional therapy
21:59:28	Cyndi-FO	that's what we call friendship
21:59:31	AngeL	I agree 100 percent with kathy....... we are all there for each other
21:59:43	Cyndi-FO	Lorrie -- they are enforced like many things -- via peer pressure
21:59:45	Stacy-Horn	(Speaking as a non-therapist.)
21:59:49	janster	stacy, you just seem to prefer asynchronous to synchronous communication :) there are many kinds of community history, not all of which are archived
21:59:49	JOIN	M-Fenichel has joined.
22:00:03	D--Helton	John (or other researchers), where do you think research is headed regarding this broad topic?
22:00:07	Cyndi-FO	So people don't do it often : )
22:00:09	Inity	I moderate four conferences and run IRC channel :) These are true communities of people... friends.
22:00:11	MarthaAinsworth	Cyndi, therapists work with patients online every day. It's not theoretical, it happens daily... people get real help.
22:00:12	Stofle	once you've done it, you see the problems you would think that would prevent psychotherapy from happening just aren't there.
22:00:12	Chat Guy	I don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
22:00:28	JohnSuler	I wonder if chat communities are therapeutic?
22:00:34	storm	to call it psychotherapy invites comparisons to f2f therapy. text-based therapy has it own set of advantages and disadvantages and con NOT be compared to f2f therapy
22:00:45	Lorrie	I don't see it. Read how this is going. No one is obeying the "rules" set out just a few minutes ago.
22:00:58	Inity	What do you think about trying to heal the Internet-Addiction On-Line?
22:01:13	JohnSuler	I can't define psychotherapy, but I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!
22:01:26	Electra	(one more example of herded ferrets??)
22:01:37	Stacy-Horn	I see no reason for agreeing on definitions in order to begin to look at how people communicate online and try to understand and use it.
22:01:42	Cyndi-FO	because lorrie -- sometimes it's also good to allow a room to define it's own pace
22:01:47	Gayla-Novitsky	JohnSuler: LOL
22:01:48	Lorrie	Exactly!
22:01:54	JohnSuler	(I think we've dispensed with the hand raising format)
22:01:54	River	log off and snail mail us when your cured Inity
22:02:03	Mark-Vardell	lol john grohol.....hmmm you know i really think that a therapist before he or she can really begin to "help" online is to fully immerse themselves in the nuances of chat rooms and internet communication before anything can happen
22:02:06	JohnSuler	(I sorta like the free-for-all myself!)
22:02:11	Cyndi-FO	well stacy -- I see a huge difference between casual chat and actual therapy
22:02:24	Billie	to compare f2f to online is to compare apples to oranges
22:02:26	Lorrie	Survival of the most persistent?
22:02:32	Cyndi-FO	hee hee lorrie
22:02:39	Stofle	Mark - that's a neccessary competency.
22:02:41	Cyndi-FO	or the fastest typer!
22:02:46	Mark-Vardell	i think therapist consider online therapy should they themselves avoid the "newbie syndrome"
22:02:48	M-Fenichel	I'm wondering whether there's both "chat *for* therapy", and chat *as* therapy. Research always shows that people go first to friends and family before going out to a professional office....
22:02:57	MarthaAinsworth	Cyndi, there are a lot of other options in between casual chat and f2f therapy!
22:03:12	Tom	it's the survival of the most adaptable, isn't it?
22:03:23	Susan	Is the conference still going on?
22:03:34	Cyndi-FO	Agreed Martha -- and online chat in combination with other things might be considered a viable form of therapy
22:03:37	Lorrie	Mickey? You still here?
22:03:53	Gayla-Novitsky	M-Fenichel: the contact with cyberfriends can certainly take the place of contact with rl friends
22:03:55	JohnSuler	yes, Susan, if you want to stretch the definition of "conference"!
22:04:01	Cyndi-FO	but online chat as the only form of therapy ... I would label that therapist a quack
22:04:09	storm	when online is combined with f2f, there is less room for projection and transference
22:04:42	JohnSuler	I hate you for saying that Storm!! (LOL)
22:04:43	Lorrie	Yes, the most adaptable but the most adaptable without running over your fellow man is the "IDEA"
22:04:44	JOIN	Brain has joined.
22:04:58	storm	calling online therapy invites comparisons to f2f therapy
22:05:00	IDLE
22:05:02	River	So its a new field..it will evolve
22:05:07	Cyndi-FO	ok -- so how does a therapist know when an online person is lying about themselves?
22:05:13	Stacy-Horn	I run an online service and I've found the ftf element is crucial to preserving community. In a recent poll, 83% said they get together with other people who use my service (it's called Echo).
22:05:25	Cyndi-FO	and if you don't know basic facts, how can you help them?
22:05:39	storm	text-based therapy has it own set of advantages and disadvantages and can NOT be directly compared to f2f therapy, imho
22:05:40	Judy-Kraybill	Forgive the newbie question: But what is LOL?
22:05:41	JohnSuler	YES, STACY!
22:05:49	Chat Guy	I don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
22:05:56	tracy55	i think it's too easy to respond to the symptom and not the real problem in online counseling. especially if someone has dysfunctions related to lack of empathy in early life. the healing is usually nonverbal.
22:05:57	Cyndi-FO	LOL=laughing Out Loud
22:06:00	LEAVE	AngeL has left.
22:06:01	IDLE
22:06:04	Cyndi-FO	or Lunatics On Line
22:06:07	LEAVE	Charlie-Seashore has left.
22:06:13	Gayla-Novitsky	sometimes the lie is also meaningful
22:06:31	Cyndi-FO	but not if you don't know parts of the truth Gayla -- so it would seem
22:06:39	JOIN	Charlie-Seashore has joined.
22:06:46	Cyndi-FO	no...but there are clues you can pick up on
22:06:47	Judy-Kraybill	Thanks Cyndi...
22:06:47	Stacy-Horn	What does it mean when something someone says shows up italicized?
22:06:56	Cyndi-FO	online, you don't even know if they are male or female
22:07:10	River	you are being whispered to
22:07:11	Valerie-Hart	Isn't what a person perceives more important often than reality?
22:07:11	Cyndi-FO	perhaps that they are whispering to you?
22:07:14	JohnGrohol	dora-weaver........... And that kind of research takes years to design, implement, and report on...
22:07:20	MarthaAinsworth	Absolutely JohnG... it's sort of beside the point!
22:07:27	Judy-Kraybill	Stacy: Someone has whispered to you...
22:07:55	JohnGrohol	D-Helton....... Not enough is being done in this area... a bit here and there.
22:08:02	Cyndi-FO	People have faked their own deaths online
22:08:02	Gayla-Novitsky	Cyndi: I'm really speaking outside my own experience here--but there are some papers I've seen about the characters people create in MUD's that don't agree with you!
22:08:02	JOIN	M--Fenichel has joined.
22:08:05	Stacy-Horn	Thanks John and Judy!
22:08:18	D--Helton	any suggestions JGrohol?
22:08:21	dora-weaver	John; I plan to be around a long time.
22:08:21	Mark-Vardell	lol@stacy
22:08:22	JohnSuler	..(the group seems to be flowing now... perhaps we are adapting to this environment?)
22:08:27	JohnGrohol	MarthaAinsworth........... Well, yes, it is to some degree. A therapist isn't a private investigator, nor should they try and be.
22:08:37	storm	social science research in online issues is just starting to look at the effect of projection and transference in text-based relationships
22:08:50	Susan	One of the critical techniques I use in the therapeutic relationship is silence...just sitting there with the client. How would that take place or could it take place online?
22:09:18	Stacy-Horn	Cyndi, you're talking about places where people are anonymous? Otherwise you know people's gender, etc.
22:09:21	Stofle	Susan... the same way...
22:09:31	JohnSuler	..or going to the bathroom,right FO?
22:09:33	Cyndi-FO	silence online also creates a greater sense of paranoia (sp?)
22:09:35	Tom	!
22:09:48	Stacy-Horn	Susan, you would have to do therapy online ... differently.
22:09:51	Gayla-Novitsky	you have to distinguish between lagging and deliberate silence
22:09:52	Lorrie	Could our resistance be mainly to something new and different?
22:09:53	MarthaAinsworth	...therapists cost money... why would you waste money lying to them if you are in need of help? well, I guess some people would.
22:09:55	Cyndi-FO	Stacy -- the only way you know MY gender is if you were to call me on the phone this instant. LOL
22:09:57	D--Helton	susan, you could type "silence" or "waiting"
22:09:59	JohnGrohol	D-Helton.......... Not really, these things take time, that's all.
22:10:04	Cyndi-FO	lol john
22:10:20	Mark-Vardell	i actually am amazed at the sublties that people pick up in chat tracy *smiles*
22:10:22	JohnSuler	bye storm!
22:10:22	Chat Guy	Goodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:10:54	JohnSuler	boy, is that ChatGuy dumb...
22:10:54	Cyndi-FO	(typing "silence" or "waiting" kinda ruins the silent treatment -- I use that same technique dealing with reporters)
22:10:58	D--Helton	bye storm
22:10:58	Chat Guy	Goodbye, D--Helton... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:11:10	Gayla-Novitsky	the name "Cyndi" gives us a valuable clue to your gender!
22:11:25	Cyndi-FO	Ok..that's different Stacy -- as I said, online in combo with other things is a different matter
22:11:26	JohnGrohol	yes, chat guy is kind of stupid... :-)
22:11:26	Chat Guy	The only thing which is really stupid in this world, JohnGrohol, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
22:11:26	JohnSuler	really, Stacy?...interesting!
22:11:33	Cyndi-FO	right storm
22:11:34	Brain	Not necessarily,
22:11:43	storm	let's do this again!!!
22:11:46	Valerie-Hart	It would seem that the traditional methods of "observation" that we learned, especially in an initial session would have to be revised.
22:11:56	Cyndi-FO	lol chat guy
22:12:00	storm	thanks John S. by all
22:12:03	JohnSuler	he got ya there, John!!
22:12:16	LEAVE	storm has left.
22:12:17	LEAVE	storm has left.
22:12:21	JohnSuler	bye storm!!!
22:12:21	Chat Guy	Goodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:12:22	Gayla-Novitsky	bye storm!
22:12:22	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:12:22	Billie	<smile> you live and learn *wink*
22:12:26	JohnGrohol	:-) Time for me to be going too... take care all and enjoy the chat.
22:12:39	tracy55	about silence online...i think it's a great opportunity to explore projection. we encounter ourselves in the silences, with both chat and email.
22:13:04	Gayla-Novitsky	Stacy: I read your book last month, because your community sponsored Yvette Colon
22:13:14	Gayla-Novitsky	goodbye john
22:13:14	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:13:30	LEAVE	JohnGrohol has left.
22:13:44	LEAVE	M--Fenichel has left.
22:13:49	Gayla-Novitsky	Chat Guy: you cannot get rid of me that easily
22:13:51	Mark-Vardell	byee John G ...
22:13:51	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:13:58	Inity	I've tired a lot. These refreshings are terrible... O, my eyes :~(
22:14:01	dora-weaver	lorrie are you talking about the webboard?
22:14:09	janster	johnsuler, lucky it's just a headache and not seizures :)
22:14:10	JohnSuler	btw...ChatGuy is a bot
22:14:11	Billie	Chat Guy is a bot...
22:14:16	Mark-Vardell	lol chat guy
22:14:21	LEAVE	pam-Richardson has left.
22:14:28	Cyndi-FO	so I gathered! LOL
22:14:30	Lorrie	yea the webboard
22:14:30	Inity	A stupid bot, even :))
22:14:30	Chat Guy	The only thing which is really stupid in this world, Inity, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
22:14:32	Billie	oops...sorry John
22:14:44	Cyndi-FO	the hot cup of coffee through me off...but he's too polite to be real :P
22:14:44	Chat Guy	Them java beans are goooooood!
22:15:02	Inity	If I say "stupid", Chat Guy always sends the same comment :)
22:15:02	Chat Guy	The only thing which is really stupid in this world, Inity, is the word "HOT" on a cup of fast-food coffee.
22:15:17	Stacy-Horn	Storm! That's just what I discovered and it's part of the reason why I made such an effort to have the ftf element of Echo as strong as the online element. Less paranoia and projection with a strong ftf connection.
22:15:20	JohnSuler	he's rather predictable
22:15:20	Mark-Vardell	lol inity
22:15:21	Gayla-Novitsky	take care, Martha
22:15:39	JohnSuler	TOPIC: CAN A BOT DO PSYCHOTHERAPY (!)
22:15:44	Cyndi-FO	there is a level of intimacy you can only get via online
22:15:52	Cyndi-FO	lol john
22:15:56	LEAVE	Jim-Jarvis has left.
22:16:03	Gayla-Novitsky	Cyndi: YES!!!
22:16:03	Billie	LOL JohnS
22:16:14	LEAVE	Ken-Norton has left.
22:16:16	Stacy-Horn	Yes.
22:16:19	Cyndi-FO	but true therapy (if there is such a thing) requires reading beyond the typed words
22:16:21	Tom	yes, but it must be called robotherapy
22:16:21	janster	johnsuler, ELIZA seemed to think so :)
22:16:24	Joeni-Jones	I 've been quietly listening, as I am new here. But I did want to comment about Virtual and chat. It is very different then text only, and I think people respond differently in VR rather then text chat.
22:16:40	Inity	JohnSuler: You mean Elisa? Elisa was good psychotherapist! %)
22:16:43	Mark-Vardell	lol tom
22:16:44	Cyndi-FO	Ok...I have a favorite scenario to share
22:16:58	Cyndi-FO	A friend had a horrible relationship with his teenage daughter
22:17:02	Mark-Vardell	on Pow Wow the robot voice is called Hal
22:17:11	Cyndi-FO	they fought all the time, she ran away often
22:17:14	JohnSuler	my kids play with Eliza all the time... they like to curse at her
22:17:29	dora-weaver	Do any of you guys use a webboard. You can chat on-line . I use it for classes. Many of my students seem to resist using the board. I don't know why.
22:17:34	LEAVE	D--Helton has left.
22:17:45	Cyndi-FO	through this they managed to go online once
22:17:47	LEAVE	MarthaAinsworth has left.
22:17:55	Joeni-Jones	3Dimensional where you put an avatar on much as clothing
22:17:57	Stacy-Horn	People metaphorically "turn the machine off" in ftf relationships. They leave the room, don't call for a few days, etc.
22:18:04	Mark-Vardell	for the next class i am teaching we are learning to use WebCT dora
22:18:05	Cyndi-FO	and now when they have BIG issues, they chat online -- that has really helped
22:18:06	Gayla-Novitsky	dora: I'm not familiar with the term..what is a webboard?
22:18:15	LEAVE	Stofle has left.
22:18:36	JohnSuler	yes.. that's an interesting story, FO...it says a lot about online relationships
22:18:54	Gayla-Novitsky	Joeni: sounds lovely, but where do you go to do it?
22:18:54	Stacy-Horn	Who is Martha Ainsworth? I recognize that name from somewhere.
22:19:03	JohnSuler	students email me all the time,dora... might it be because a webboard is more public?
22:19:41	Gayla-Novitsky	Stacy: she is the creator of Metanoia
22:19:45	Cyndi-FO	btw John, Palace was the bonding program for them :D
22:19:50	Stacy-Horn	Cyithat's an important point to make. Distance can be a tool.
22:19:56	JohnSuler	check the program for the meeting, Stacy http://www.voicenet.com/~suler/bolchat.html
22:20:23	JohnSuler	as it is for lots of people, FO!
22:20:26	Stacy-Horn	What is Metanoia? (If that can be answered easily.)
22:20:26	Chat Guy	I don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
22:20:52	River	metanoia is the OPPOSITE of paranoia
22:21:24	dora-weaver	A webboard letts you set up conferences. You can send post as well as chat. You can also control who comes into the chat room.
22:21:25	Gayla-Novitsky	Stacy: easier to visit & see: www.metanoia.org
22:22:28	Cyndi-FO	you think offline (real life) will no longer exist?
22:22:43	LEAVE	Clay-Tucker-Ladd has left.
22:22:54	JohnSuler	what's "real life" FO?
22:23:06	Tom	well, someone has to mind the pumps
22:23:06	Mark-Vardell	before i go....my biz url is...http://members.tripod.com/~MarkVardell/index.htm
22:23:11	Gayla-Novitsky	FO: naww, there'll always be a need for pizza delivery
22:23:12	Cyndi-FO	real life meaning offline life
22:23:14	Inity	%))
22:23:50	JohnSuler	what's "offline life" FO (LOL!)
22:23:53	Mark-Vardell	and for anyone that has icq....my icq # is 13794588 main icq number
22:24:14	Inity	There is no life offline. That's an existing. On-Line is LIFE. %) BTW, who have seen the "Net Worth" in Sliders TV series? ;)
22:24:17	Gayla-Novitsky	hmmmm.....wetware modems installed at birth
22:24:25	Cyndi-FO	hee hee Mark. Mine is 101299 (sign of a real geek)
22:24:50	JohnSuler	probably, Valerie
22:25:06	tracy55	what about chat though for people who have a body/mind split though or are somewhat dissociated from their bodies and feelings?
22:25:16	Gayla-Novitsky	Valerie: only if they engage an interest of another participant
22:25:21	Mark-Vardell	lol cyndi swl
22:25:23	Brain	70's question=what's your sign, 90's question=What's your ICQ number
22:25:30	JohnSuler	Has anyone tried to do group therapy/counseling with chat?
22:25:34	Cyndi-FO	lol Brain!!!!!!
22:25:38	Inity	This "Net-Worth" is about the world divided to on-liners and off-liners...
22:25:48	Cyndi-FO	Is that BRAIN from Palace?
22:25:48	Stacy-Horn	Interesting question, Tracy.
22:25:50	River	hi ya Brain
22:26:04	Valerie-Hart	Time to go, bye all
22:26:04	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Valerie-Hart... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:26:06	Gayla-Novitsky	tracy: there are certainly plenty of physically disabled people online
22:26:24	Gayla-Novitsky	bye valerie
22:26:24	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:26:34	River	online is a perfect medium for the handicapped
22:26:35	Brain	yes, shhh, I'm slumming
22:26:58	Lorrie	Gayla - How do you know they are physically disabled?
22:27:01	Cyndi-FO	welcome brain : )
22:27:06	Gayla-Novitsky	John: I know that there are some who do it
22:27:12	tracy55	effects of chat depend a lot on the individual. those who hide in words have a great cover here...it reinforces their neurosis....for those who are shy in the outer world, the net is as they say, "the revenge of the introverts"
22:27:14	Joeni-Jones	back .. sorry I got dropped by my ISP
22:27:18	River	you don't..thats why its perfect
22:27:25	Billie	683082 the sign of a real geek <smile> is mine
22:27:29	Cyndi-FO	exactly river
22:27:50	JohnSuler	revenge of the introverts...funny!
22:27:53	Cyndi-FO	in fact, I've known two people on line who I later learned were in wheel chairs
22:27:56	Gayla-Novitsky	Lorrie: by report...of course you can have fraud online or offline
22:28:13	JohnSuler	welcome back, JJ
22:28:21	Brain	The Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth, well as a meek representative, we don't want it
22:28:26	River	the Net can often act as "training wheels" for people desiring to get over..whatever..and join offline society
22:28:30	Cyndi-FO	One told me online gave a new sense of freedom in meeting people
22:28:31	Mark-Vardell	lol billie thanks would love to add you....liked your comments on the mailing lists :-)
22:28:37	Inity	The sign of real geek is having an ICQ number? Where is your geek-code, Billie? <g>
22:28:43	Cyndi-FO	lol brain!!!!
22:28:51	Stacy-Horn	It's been my experience that *over time* people are the same online as they are in person.
22:28:55	Cyndi-FO	Inity...the sign of a geek is having a really LOW icq number
22:28:57	Gayla-Novitsky	Right, River
22:29:16	dora-weaver	lorrie do you have my webboard address? If so give it out.
22:29:20	Cyndi-FO	(agrees with River)
22:29:42	Stacy-Horn	People can't help being themselves. (Over time.)
22:29:56	Inity	Cyndi, I don't think so... I think that there are some more important signs of geekiness :)
22:30:00	IDLE	Michael-Fenichel has left.
22:30:14	tracy55	john, i've been in an online therapy group using chat. an online therapy group of psychotherapists, no less. it works well only if very structured. when not structured right, someone usually feels deeply hurt or overwhelmed.
22:30:15	JohnSuler	interesting... whenever I'm in chat, I feel an urge to "play"
22:30:17	Cyndi-FO	I don't know Stacy -- I've seen people put up a charade for a long time online
22:30:24	Billie	thanks Mark
22:30:37	Gayla-Novitsky	But Inity, in cyberspace no one can see your pocket protector
22:30:46	River	Chat is very Play filled for me
22:30:49	JohnSuler	interesting, Tracy... how is it structured?
22:31:11	Mark-Vardell	no problem billie ....thanks back too
22:31:16	tracy55	what is it that leads us to be playful and childlike in chat anyway? It so easily is regressive.
22:31:17	Stacy-Horn	It's true Cyndi, but most people don't. (Not where I go anyway.)
22:31:32	JohnSuler	(I think we've had a few people leave this meeting because they felt overwhelmed)
22:31:46	Billie	JohnS ...I feel the same...brings out the play
22:32:06	tracy55	John, the group I was in was short term for 3 months. The primary structure focused on one person a week, taking turns, and was by mailing list. But we had some chats as well.
22:32:06	JohnSuler	I think chat requires flexible and strong cognitive filters
22:32:11	Tom	or underwhelmed
22:32:11	Brain	In cyberspace no one can hear you scream, unless you upload it
22:32:31	Inity	Gayla-Novitsky : you can see it on my photo on my page... on index :))) http://inity.junik.lv
22:32:35	Mark-Vardell	i also find cyberplay refreshing in it's own way...think of the level of imagination one gets in touch with
22:32:49	Stacy-Horn	I would think play very useful for therapy. (Again, I am not a therapist.)
22:32:49	janster	johnsuler, i'm finding the refresh business tiring for sure
22:32:50	River	)scream.wav
22:33:18	Tom	yes, refresh sucks
22:33:18	JohnSuler	Tom, what do you think about chat?
22:33:32	JohnSuler	lol, Riv!
22:33:43	Brain	There would be a tendancy for people to "read" far too much into a conversation
22:33:53	JohnSuler	refresh indeed is annoying
22:33:56	Tom	ohoh...pressure...
22:33:57	Cyndi-FO	lol brain...you always have a good reply
22:33:58	Billie	I LOVE the pocket protector
22:33:59	Stacy-Horn	Okay, I'm off! (I can see I am the only tv fan here- I would never have scheduled a chat tonight -- Golden Globe Awards and X Files!)
22:34:09	River	"read" or project??
22:34:18	JohnSuler	it really is giving me a headache
22:34:20	Jeff-Guterman	Bye all, gotta go. Thanks JohnS, an interesting experience.
22:34:20	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Jeff-Guterman... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:34:32	JohnSuler	bye Stacy!!
22:34:32	Chat Guy	Goodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:34:54	LEAVE	Jeff-Guterman has left.
22:34:57	River	Yes FO...I think so
22:35:06	Brain	well, make assumptions about the other person, since there are usually no visual cues to work with
22:35:21	Tom	weird..software crashed...
22:35:32	Billie	404 Not Found
22:35:39	JohnSuler	see ya, Riv! Thanks for coming
22:35:45	Cyndi-FO	Is Aski Leaving?
22:36:01	Cyndi-FO	I'm confused about who is coming and who is going
22:36:08	River	no, I am..See ya FO..et al
22:36:13	Inity	Billie: the GeekGeer http://www.geekgeer.com presenter me two ones for birthday in 1997	:)
22:36:20	Cyndi-FO	lol...ok. bye river : )
22:36:20	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Cyndi-FO... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:36:21	dora-weaver	Thank John. I gotten some good topics to share with my students. I hope you do this again.
22:36:24	Judy-Kraybill	Enjoyed it...Bye Everyone...
22:36:24	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Judy-Kraybill... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:36:31	JohnSuler	I'm still here, FO... ChatGuy says goodbye to you whenever you type "bye"
22:36:31	Chat Guy	Goodbye, JohnSuler... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:36:39	Mark-Vardell	byeee stacy horn...it was nice meeting and i really am looking forward to getting a copy of your book *smiles*
22:36:39	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:36:41	Tom	my software crashed before I answered John's ?...
22:36:41	Chat Guy	I don't know, but I do know that isn't it.
22:36:43	LEAVE	Judy-Kraybill has left.
22:36:43	River	Hi Ho River...Away
22:36:55	dora-weaver	Have a good night.
22:36:56	LEAVE	River has left.
22:36:58	Cyndi-FO	(and therein why I dislike bots AND censorship)
22:37:00	LEAVE	dora-weaver has left.
22:37:11	Tom	I think chat is great...gotta have a purpose for it...have to know what you want...not always easy...
22:37:20	LEAVE	Lorrie has left.
22:37:22	Mark-Vardell	bye judy kraybill
22:37:22	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:37:27	JOIN	Judy-Kraybill has joined.
22:37:38	Cyndi-FO	a lot of PR people seem to be online.
22:37:53	Cyndi-FO	I think it is because we are used to talking in sound bytes. lol
22:38:00	LEAVE	Judy-Kraybill has left.
22:38:01	IDLE	Boar has left.
22:38:01	JohnSuler	Have you used chat before, Tom?
22:38:10	Stacy-Horn	Bye everyone -- to any who whispered to me I'm sorry if I didn't respond. I was confused.
22:38:10	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Stacy-Horn... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:38:14	Inity	http://inity.junik.lv is alive... i think.
22:38:16	LEAVE	Stacy-Horn has left.
22:38:21	Tom	yes, a lot...different software....
22:38:22	Mark-Vardell	*handing chat guy a newspaper*
22:38:49	Cyndi-FO	lol Mark
22:39:09	Tom	used to chat on a chess server...focus generally narrowed to those with similar interest
22:39:23	Cyndi-FO	agreed Brain. But sometimes people feel a need to justify using something ; )
22:39:31	Mark-Vardell	oic stacy ...i was one that did LOL...thought you thought your were looking for the ignore button lol
22:39:34	Gayla-Novitsky	sorry, tracy
22:39:34	JohnSuler	do you think people can establish meaningful relationships in chat ALONE (no email or other kinds of contact)?
22:39:34	Chat Guy	You're not alone, JohnSuler! I'm here!
22:39:40	Gayla-Novitsky	JohnSuler: where/when will transcript of this chat be published?
22:39:46	JOIN	peter-chechele has joined.
22:40:15	JohnSuler	Gayla... hopefully BOL will put a transcript up on their web site
22:40:21	Billie	Yes JohnS I think so
22:40:21	Cyndi-FO	John -- define what "meaningful" means
22:40:27	Tom	on one chess server...they saved a guys life calling out the paramedics to online call for help...he found it very meaningful
22:40:28	JohnSuler	Hello Peter
22:40:36	peter-chechele	sorry I'm so late...thought it was 9:30 PST!
22:40:45	Gayla-Novitsky	Hopefully?
22:40:48	Cyndi-FO	I would think yes -- much the way people used to develop meaningful relationships via pen pals
22:40:50	Brain	well it can certainly develop, but only evolve up to a point
22:40:57	JohnSuler	meaningful - feeling attached to the other person, emotionally attached
22:41:00	Cyndi-FO	hi peter! woohoo...another westcoaster!
22:41:03	Tom	was in the news
22:41:04	janster	johnsuler, and will the log read backwards like the scroll here? :)
22:41:11	Mark-Vardell	hello peter
22:41:28	Cyndi-FO	People use to fall in love by only writing -- and hearing from each other once a week or once a month
22:41:39	Billie	welcome peter
22:41:51	Gayla-Novitsky	It seems that people have preferred modes...some avoid chats, some hate to write e-mails
22:41:51	Cyndi-FO	so...certainly the same can happen in chat
22:41:58	JohnSuler	don't know janster... hopefully they can reverse it!
22:42:00	IDLE	M-Fenichel has left.
22:42:00	tracy55	we also need to differentiate chat with strangers from chats with friends we've had online for a while. the possibilities with the latter are much deeper...
22:42:19	Mark-Vardell	the first whoooo hooo i heard in here cyndi LOL
22:42:21	JohnSuler	what kind of people like chat over other modes of online communicating?
22:42:22	Cyndi-FO	yes tracy -- but didn't your online friends begin as strangers?
22:42:39	Brain	Well, those people didn't get out that much either
22:43:14	Tom	people with a lot of time on their hands?
22:43:24	Gayla-Novitsky	John: people who like to listen to others interacting....
22:43:24	Cyndi-FO	lol Brain
22:43:33	Mark-Vardell	hmmm one topic no one brought up is the whole thing of flirting and romance or should i say cybersex online
22:43:40	Gayla-Novitsky	people who want realtime give-and-take
22:43:46	Billie	is there a font adjustment here somewhere??
22:43:47	tracy55	sure cyndi online friends begin as strangers but over time there's more trust and emotional investment, so one is moved more deeply by the communication....
22:43:47	peter-chechele	I have weekly icq chat sessions with one client...have been for several months now...
22:43:47	Inity	I just think, why people who spend too much time with computers and on the Internet, frequently feel sadness/depression...
22:43:47	Chat Guy	Inity, I'm sorry to hear that...
22:44:18	Gayla-Novitsky	sometimes for the sociability without any interest in flirting type relationships
22:44:22	JohnSuler	how is it working, Peter?
22:44:26	Cyndi-FO	this is true tracy -- but isn't that also true with "offline" friends?
22:45:21	tracy55	yes cyndi, i'm not saying there's a difference there. but that the potential for deeper communication and attachment increases also with time...
22:45:26	Gayla-Novitsky	Inity: I think the question is, would they have pleasant interactions with other people if they did not have the computer?
22:45:30	Cyndi-FO	Inity -- do you think people who spend too much time online were depressed to start with?
22:45:30	Chat Guy	Cyndi-FO, what makes you feel so depressed?
22:45:53	Cyndi-FO	Agreed Tracy
22:45:58	peter-chechele	It's interesting...although there is a great deal missing non-verbally, I think we have been able to develop a meaningful relationship over time.
22:46:10	Mark-Vardell	yes gayla i agree...and family chat rooms that especially holds true
22:46:37	JohnSuler	Peter..is this someone who also see in-person, or used to see in-person?
22:46:42	Billie	hummmm I think ChatGuy could do therapy *wink*
22:46:52	peter-chechele	in fact in some ways a lot more transference and projection happen quicker here then in f2f
22:47:02	tracy55	But what I find so difficult in online friendships is how people can disappear - completely. Daily communication and then none at all. I've had two online friends I was in touch with daily who lost their online connection and I never heard from the again. People drop each other so easily online.
22:47:04	Mark-Vardell	lol billie
22:47:06	JohnSuler	lol, Billie
22:47:07	Inity	I try to understand, what is _first_ - people who tend to fall in depression often go to computers - or, this "computer life" makes people more depressive...
22:47:22	peter-chechele	no...just one of my online clients...I do both email and chat with her.
22:47:40	JohnSuler	yes, I could see that happening, Peter - rapid transference
22:47:42	Cyndi-FO	Yes...I've experienced that as well tracy
22:47:52	JohnSuler	do you work with the transference?
22:47:56	Gayla-Novitsky	Inity: probably some of both
22:47:59	Cyndi-FO	however, I also have offline friends who suddenly stopped communicating
22:48:05	Billie	that Mellon study's results favored the later
22:48:11	Cyndi-FO	I assume we just grow apart and stop having as much in common
22:48:12	Inity	Sometimes I have troubles communicating with people who don't have computers and who don't like them...
22:48:40	Gayla-Novitsky	tracy: yes, it's very true, unless you get some kind of rl contact info. but then sometimes they pop back INTO your life again later
22:48:44	Brain	I always have to wonder how they set up the parameters for those studies
22:49:02	IDLE	kathy has left.
22:49:02	Mark-Vardell	John Suler it was very interesting and I enjoyed this experience....future ones to come I hope...and have not doubts there will be....thanks you hosted wonderfully *smiles*
22:49:17	JohnSuler	thanks Mark!
22:49:23	Cyndi-FO	Inity -- the challenge is trying to explain your online friends to your offline friends
22:49:34	LEAVE	kloe has left.
22:49:36	Cyndi-FO	great to meet you Mark!
22:49:52	Billie	yes JohnS a job well done in a difficult medium
22:50:11	Mark-Vardell	and bye to all *waving*......and a big hug for Chat Guy LOL
22:50:11	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:50:15	peter-chechele	Next time gotta get to the party on time!
22:50:16	JohnSuler	thanks, Billie!
22:50:20	Inity	Some my old friends stopped communicating with me when I bought a computer; they said "so, you're lost, how all these computer people"...
22:50:27	Gayla-Novitsky	bye Mark!
22:50:27	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Gayla-Novitsky... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:50:36	JohnSuler	take care, Mark!
22:50:57	Billie	lol Mark....ChatGuy is trying out for my job I think
22:51:02	Cyndi-FO	Did they stop communicating or did you Inity?
22:51:02	peter-chechele	do the last ones here have to help clean up?
22:51:04	LEAVE	Nexxie has left.
22:51:14	JOIN	lynne has joined.
22:51:24	Inity	One of my good old friends said that online friendship isn't REAL friendship... that my online friends are "artificial", "cybers"...
22:51:30	Tom	:)
22:51:33	Cyndi-FO	Lynne!!!!
22:51:35	Gayla-Novitsky	we need to get Chat Guy a flight attendant job, he'd be a natural
22:51:36	JohnSuler	yes, Peter... you do the dishes...
22:51:41	Billie	yep peter...::::tossing you the broom and dust pan:::::
22:51:45	Mark-Vardell	bye gayla ....and cya next peter....and byeeee cyndi and billie *smiles*
22:51:45	Chat Guy	Goodbye, Mark-Vardell... Have a great day and thanks for stopping by.
22:51:46	Cyndi-FO	That is a common myth -- until they experience online friends
22:51:54	JohnSuler	lol, Gayla!
22:52:13	Cyndi-FO	we are all REAL (except for Chat Guy)
22:52:19	Inity	When they say "you're lost", "you're outside of society" - it's difficult to see: my old world someday pushed me away...
22:52:26	Gayla-Novitsky	Inity: how do your cyberfriends feel to YOU?
22:52:41	JohnSuler	ChatGuy is real too... a manifestation of the person who programmed him!
22:52:52	LEAVE	Mark-Vardell has left.
22:53:09	Inity	FO, I don't know who stopped first... but anyway I've lost some my old friends who "last offline"...
22:53:13	Cyndi-FO	not true john! that is like saying the cartoons on saturday morning are real
22:53:19	JohnSuler	ChatGuy is a kind of "avatar"
22:53:27	Brain	Do we HAVE to be real ? reality is so overrated
22:53:33	janster	johnsuler, i wouldn't necessarily want to own up to that authorship hehe
22:53:35	Billie	correct JohnS....and some bots are like HAL...and some are like the one on Lost in Space
22:53:36	Cyndi-FO	hee hee Brain
22:53:41	Tom	sometimes it feels like online activity bridges the 'inner & outer' in some fresh new way
22:53:42	JohnSuler	you mean, cartoons AREN'T real?!
22:53:48	Gayla-Novitsky	Cyndi: you mean they're NOT?
22:53:51	Inity	I like my Internet Friends. And we had some real-life meetings with people whom I
22:53:52	Cyndi-FO	Ok Inity -- I understand. I've overcome some of those problems though
22:53:53	JOIN	curious has joined.
22:53:58	Cyndi-FO	lol Gayla!!!!
22:54:13	Inity	I've met online. It was great.
22:54:19	JohnSuler	welcome curious!
22:54:24	Cyndi-FO	Yes Inity..same here
22:54:31	Billie	<---has decided that ChatGuy is a wanna be therapist
22:54:36	Cyndi-FO	You know...I discovered ways to bridge the gap though
22:54:49	Cyndi-FO	My offline friends now ASK me about some of my online friends...
22:54:51	peter-chechele	John how often do you anticipate having these chats?
22:55:01	Cyndi-FO	they've come to know my online friends from stories I've shared
22:55:10	Cyndi-FO	so...now they feel more included
22:55:14	JOIN	Dr-Devon has joined.
22:55:16	Inity	It's like a rebirthing. An initiation. "I used to have a life, now I have a computer and a modem"... %)
22:55:16	JohnSuler	don't know, Peter... you interested in being a speaker?
22:55:19	tracy55	have any of you experienced online friendships dissolving after you meet f2f? this has happened to me a number of times.
22:55:51	Cyndi-FO	Yes tracy -- but it's only happened to me when there were expectations of romance that didn't pan out
22:55:52	JohnSuler	yes, tracy...
22:55:58	Gayla-Novitsky	Tracy: no, though I have heard of that
22:55:59	Billie	lol JohnS and yes cartoons are real...but define 'real' *wink*
22:56:24	Cyndi-FO	lol Inity...try and find ways to bring your friends into the loop of your cyber friends maybe
22:56:26	peter-chechele	whoa....not sure I'm an authority yet! I do have experiences and thoughts on the topic but elevating me to "a speaker" kinda intimidates me.
22:56:42	Billie	greetings DrD
22:56:49	JohnSuler	LOL...ok, Peter
22:56:50	janster	i've done the opposite of the norm: brought people from real life (friends and relatives) who live far away onto IRC to chat and save phone bills
22:56:54	Brain	The trick with that, is to have no expectations, so you never can be disappointed
22:57:04	Cyndi-FO	right..I've done that as well janster
22:57:17	Cyndi-FO	right Brain. But that's the problem. It's a trick.
22:57:17	Dr-Devon	hello :)
22:57:30	Cyndi-FO	How does one achieve "no expectations" when you've been intimate online?
22:57:37	Cyndi-FO	hi Devon!
22:57:50	peter-chechele	who else here is doing some sort of online work?
22:57:53	Tom	having no expectations is a little like running out of air...isn't it?
22:57:54	Inity	I'm like a drug-dealer: many my friends joined the Internet too when I
22:58:04	JohnSuler	did anyone ever have an online relationship that blew up due to distortions in how the other person perceived you?
22:58:15	Cyndi-FO	by intimate, I don't mean cyber, but becoming closely attached
22:58:24	Inity	ed them it's beauty. An Internet ambassador, like someone called me a year ago...
22:58:24	Chat Guy	Inity, I'm sorry to hear that...
22:58:28	Billie	<---is considering starting....
22:58:36	JohnSuler	I am, Peter... but it's more of a "community psychology" approach
22:58:38	Brain	It can be done, if you keep emotions in check
22:58:50	Cyndi-FO	ahh...ok Inity....I understand
22:59:04	Cyndi-FO	It's hard to keep emotions in-check
22:59:07	Gayla-Novitsky	gee, Inity, that's pretty neat
22:59:17	janster	peter, what do you mean by "online work"?
22:59:17	Cyndi-FO	in fact, I find it much more difficult to keep them in check online than off
22:59:23	tracy55	i've had online friendships dissolve not because of expectations or disappointed romance, but because the mystique was gone....as if cyberspace created a kind of container for a certain kind of communication that was then lost.
22:59:28	Billie	<--I've had some people shy away when they discovered my profession
22:59:37	Inity	%)
22:59:43	Brain	I never said it would be easy
22:59:47	Cyndi-FO	hmmm...now that I haven't experienced tracy
22:59:52	JohnSuler	interesting, tracy
22:59:52	peter-chechele	ic...would really like to chat with others who are actively involved in the delivery of 1to1 internet based therapy.
22:59:58	Cyndi-FO	most of my friendships were bonded even more by meeting
23:00:08	Dr-Devon	I don't think you can "achieve" no expectations, you have to go in without any
23:00:26	JohnSuler	Peter, do you belong to ISMHO?
23:00:49	peter-chechele	yes john...remember Chevy's???
23:00:57	peter-chechele	Rider University???
23:01:03	JohnSuler	oy... of course! Sorry!
23:01:17	JohnSuler	have you connected with ISMHO people since then?
23:01:31	Billie	<smile> and tosses JohnS a memory cookie
23:01:52	peter-chechele	no problem...such the problem of text based/non-visual mediums.
23:01:55	JohnSuler	(the brain is going)
23:02:09	Gayla-Novitsky	Now there's a case in point: ISMHO making a point of meeting in RL
23:02:15	Cyndi-FO	your brain or Brain brain?
23:02:17	peter-chechele	not really just listen in to the list posts
23:02:21	tracy55	john, i know a man who was devastated to discover a woman he was "intimate" with online was a 50 lbs overweight. she had sent him a picture from when she was thin. He was crushed for months after they met, couldn't even be friends anymore.
23:02:31	JohnSuler	MY brain
23:02:41	Cyndi-FO	that is unfortunate tracy
23:02:45	Cyndi-FO	lol john
23:03:20	tracy55	yes cyndy it is always sad to see people rejected based on physical appearance issues
23:03:20	Chat Guy	tracy55, I'm sorry to hear that...
23:03:21	Cyndi-FO	it's unfortunate she didn't have faith in herself and unfortunate he felt the relationship required a thin friend
23:03:29	peter-chechele	does anyone here do groups online??? I would love to co-facilitate one if we could ever get it off the ground.
23:03:34	Brain	I would let you know if I was going
23:03:54	JohnSuler	chat group, Peter?
23:04:03	JohnSuler	or email group?
23:04:04	Cyndi-FO	hee hee...ok Brain : )
23:04:12	Billie	tracy55 ...many such stories exist but no different than the ones from ordinary life where one of the two say "i'm single" but they are married
23:04:12	Gayla-Novitsky	Peter: I would definitely like to participate if you do!!!
23:04:35	Cyndi-FO	it's much easier to hide a marriage online than off, though
23:04:44	peter-chechele	yes a chat group...but not sure how to go about setting it up
23:05:13	Tom	good night to all, thanks John, look forward to the next one.
23:05:15	peter-chechele	and concerned about how to control flaming...
23:05:23	Billie	I would also be interested peter
23:05:29	JohnSuler	speak to Grohol... he knows a lot about it
23:05:34	LEAVE	Tom has left.
23:05:38	JohnSuler	good night tom!
23:05:46	Gayla-Novitsky	Peter: limited membership probably
23:06:11	peter-chechele	i'm sure he does...he seems to be into everything.
23:06:19	Cyndi-FO	can they assign the co-leader administrative functions to mute or remove people?
23:06:24	JohnSuler	also speak to Gil Levin... it's possible BOL might help you get it running
23:06:26	Billie	and perhaps a bit of flaming is not in need of control
23:06:49	Cyndi-FO	Flame, baste and broil : )
23:06:50	peter-chechele	well I'll do that and Gayla and Billie let's keep in touch
23:07:11	peter-chechele	what or who is BOL
23:07:26	Gayla-Novitsky	Cyndi: online BBQ sauce
23:07:28	tracy55	btw, the community i'm obsessively involved with is http://www.ancientsites.com/ study of ancient civilizations we just did a weekend of chats on women in history. learning-based but strong friendships form. Highly recommended.
23:07:29	JohnSuler	it would be an interesting topic to focus on in a chat meeting like this one, peter
23:07:38	Gayla-Novitsky	Behavior OnLine, Peter
23:07:43	Billie	please peter...my e-mail is angeldoc@home.com
23:07:54	peter-chechele	ohhh how silly of me
23:08:07	Billie	the site your on now peter is MHN/BOL
23:08:12	Inity	I love ancient history, especially Egypt, but I don't want to join ancientcities community...
23:08:17	JohnSuler	Behavior Online is sponsoring this meeting
23:08:30	Gayla-Novitsky	Peter, I am at frogette75@hotmail.com
23:08:38	Cyndi-FO	thanks tracy
23:08:48	Brain	since, I have to teach ancient history, I need to keep it separate
23:08:50	Cyndi-FO	John -- one thing I've learned with running chat programs
23:08:55	tracy55	inity, we can only join so many communities, right? got to set limits....
23:09:06	Cyndi-FO	It's sometimes easier to break a huge topic down into smaller pieces
23:09:16	JohnSuler	Peter, let me know if you want to help organize a meeting like this one devoted specifically to chat therapy
23:09:25	Cyndi-FO	and then run a series of discussions -- each week tackling a little different question or aspect
23:09:27	Inity	What does 'sponsoring this meeting mean?
23:09:40	JohnSuler	Yes, I tried, FO.. but with not much success!
23:10:00	JohnSuler	oh.. I see what you mean, FO... yes, that's a plan!
23:10:02	Cyndi-FO	Was it open like this?
23:10:19	Inity	In ancientcities there are too many people... and it's like a RPG...
23:10:19	JohnSuler	we're on the BOL web site, Inity
23:10:23	Cyndi-FO	right -- so invite this group back over a 6 week period or so
23:10:39	peter-chechele	trying to copy and paste your emails...is there a short way of doing this?
23:10:44	Cyndi-FO	we won't all make it, but I'm sure many would make an effort to attend most sessions
23:11:09	Billie	<--afk BBiaB
23:11:12	JohnSuler	have everyone click on your name, Peter, and send you an email
23:11:33	Gayla-Novitsky	alt-edit
23:11:49	Billie	yes peter give me yours and I will send you a test and then you can add me to your addy book
23:12:35	Cyndi-FO	night John!
23:12:36	LEAVE	lynne has left.
23:12:36	JohnSuler	thank you for coming!
23:13:01	Gayla-Novitsky	goodnight, John, and thanks
23:13:02	janster	night, john, thanks for the meeting !
23:13:06	Cyndi-FO	thanks for inviting us!
23:13:13	LEAVE	JohnSuler has left.

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