Behavior OnLine - Chat Transcript March 25, 2000

CHAT TRANSCRIPT - March 25, 2000

16:13:25	JohnSuler	BEHAVIOR ONLINE WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME YOU TO THIS PANEL DISCUSSION ABOUT DEVELOPING ONLINE COMMUNITIES.....THANK YOU FOR COMING!
16:13:26	A-Sondheim	ok
16:13:38	JohnSuler	OUR PANELISTS INCLUDE HOWARD RHEINGOLD, ALAN SONDHEIM, AND ROBIN HAMMAN.... with me as the moderator.
16:13:40	storm	a.i.r is "First Conference of the Association of Internet Researchers"
16:13:52	JohnSuler	{{{ applause }}} :-)
16:14:06	JohnSuler	You can read about the panelists' work and backgrounds in the program for this meeting, which is located at Behavior Online Chat Events
16:16:00	JohnSuler	As moderator, I will pose a series of questions to the panel. During the panel discussion, please refrain from sending public messages. You are welcome to "whisper" (send private messages) to other attendees, but keep in mind that if you whisper to someone
16:16:27	JohnSuler	but keep in mind that if you whisper to someone, the chat program places a series of dots next to your name. You will not see the dots, but other people will. Please do not whisper to the speakers during the panel discussion.
16:16:43	JohnSuler	After the panel discussion, we'll open the meeting to questions and comments from the audience. At that time, indicate that you want to speak by typing the message "HAND." I'll call on people in the order of hands raised. We'll take each question one at a time
16:17:25	JohnSuler	OK. Here's a question to the panel to open our discussion.......
16:17:45	JohnSuler	If someone told you they wanted to start an online community - let's say a community for professionals of some type - what would be your first bits of advice to that person?
16:18:08	Howard-Rheingold	Is there a strong enough affinity to draw those people together online?
16:18:16	Howard-Rheingold	Do they lack other means of communication?
16:18:20	Robin-Hamman	Define the target community as best you can and then start talking with members of the community.
16:18:30	A-Sondheim	To make sure you have the time for really advertising, cultivating, and getting it organized - all too often, people begin, say, email lists, and then they go dead - about one out of 8-9 I join actually takes off
16:18:51	Robin-Hamman	Locate several gatekeepers or leaders within the community and ask them to be involved from the start. Community isn't something which can be built properly by outsiders - it has to come from within
16:18:53	Howard-Rheingold	Prepare the social infrastructure in advance.
16:19:12	Howard-Rheingold	What's the social contract? Talk to people privately. Don't try to agree on one online!
16:19:20	A-Sondheim	I agree with Robin - also have co-moderators, if you can - don't make all the decisions by yourself
16:19:57	A-Sondheim	And have some idea what to do about disruptions, spam, etc.. from the start - try to have a clear policy
16:19:59	Robin-Hamman	I think that is what Howard is saying too Alan - the social infrastructure and cooperation comes first.
16:20:10	JohnSuler	the issue of social structure is implied in several of your ideas here
16:20:12	Howard-Rheingold	Japanese call it nemawashi -- "root washing" -- communicate with your core group BEFORE you put them together.
16:20:39	JohnSuler	what specific roles are absolutely necessary
16:20:43	A-Sondheim	You might also try and find out how redundant your group will be - what other similar resources / communities are out there
16:20:55	Howard-Rheingold	If people have a very clear simple model of what behavior is expected when they join, it makes it so much easier.
16:21:03	Howard-Rheingold	They can agree, or not join.
16:21:06	JohnSuler	Howard, would that core group constitute a specific part of the social structure?
16:21:12	Howard-Rheingold	So everyone who joins agrees on the fundamentals.
16:21:35	Howard-Rheingold	The core group is what gets it going. You must have a critical mass to attract others.
16:21:46	A-Sondheim	But honestly the main problem I've seen is people beginning, and then not following through - so many lists have collapsed because of this -
16:21:49	Howard-Rheingold	But then you need to make sure it doesn't become an exclusionary clique.
16:22:17	A-Sondheim	At least at the beginning, trying to get the lurkers involved ...
16:22:19	Robin-Hamman	And if suitable behavior is already being modeled when the first users arrive, your chance of success is much greater. It's so important to "seed" an online community.
16:22:52	JohnSuler	What are the mistakes that some people make in developing an online community?
16:23:23	Howard-Rheingold	Not having a clear set of rulees. Not inviting enough folks to start with.
16:23:26	A-Sondheim	expecting immediate results, and then abandoning it when they don't appear
16:23:43	A-Sondheim	and not advertising enough, not reaching out, and expecting your core group to continue as such
16:23:54	Robin-Hamman	Mistakes... trying to build a technical infrastructure without a clear social framework in place.
16:24:10	A-Sondheim	also - not having the resources (server for example) to continue -
16:24:29	Robin-Hamman	not getting the right people involved from the start
16:24:46	Danny-G	yes... it's not so easy. but with the help of some nice people you can bring more
16:25:13	A-Sondheim	or not having a clear enough set of meta rulees to take care of new situations as they arise - who should be delegated what, for example
16:25:21	Howard-Rheingold	It's also very important to welcome newcomers and to instill that as a norm for the whole group.
16:25:22	JohnSuler	social structure seems to come up more in your ideas than the technical aspects
16:26:04	A-Sondheim	John, wouldn't that depend on the nature of the community? For example, with MOOs, the technical aspects are critical; with email lists they're not ..
16:26:07	JohnSuler	are the social aspects more important than the technical ones?
16:26:10	Robin-Hamman	I agree with Howard and Alan about the importance of rulees - but sometimes it's very hard to play police-person without offending some members of the community.
16:26:47	Howard-Rheingold	Someone will always be offended. The ones who are offended when you enforce rulees, and the ones offended when you don't.
16:26:49	A-Sondheim	That's why it should maybe be police-committee if anything ... for me, it's too neurotic to take that role on by myself at all
16:26:54	Howard-Rheingold	You have to get used to it.
16:27:14	JohnSuler	what rulees about behavior do you think are universal?
16:27:22	Robin-Hamman	John, I feel that the social aspects are more important than the technical ones. Online community was, in many ways, just as successful for bringing people together in 1985 as they are with the new technologies of today.
16:27:28	Howard-Rheingold	I hate being police, but my experience with committees is that the politics complicates with the cube of number of members.
16:27:39	Howard-Rheingold	No personal attacks.
16:28:06	A-Sondheim	rulees 'about' spamming, flaming, racial slurs, etc.. - but are there any universal rulees? if you're on alt.flame personal attacks are welcomed...
16:28:13	JohnSuler	and should specific people be given the job of enforcing rulees?
16:28:20	Howard-Rheingold	Respect others. That's universal.
16:28:53	Robin-Hamman	job of enforcing rulees - I wouldn't take part in an online community where there wasn't someone enforcing rulees, even if it is informally.
16:28:54	Howard-Rheingold	It's easier to appoint a person than to endlessly group-thrash about how to deal with transgressors.
16:29:07	A-Sondheim	I think so, John - perhaps the co-moderators... otherwise, when things are thrown open to the community, the discussion can get derailed for months - I've had up to a 1/3 of people leaving a list rather than participate in that on and on and on
16:29:21	Howard-Rheingold	In my experience, you lose more people to anarchic nastiness than you do if someone acts as a cop.
16:29:41	A-Sondheim	Absolutely!
16:29:41	Howard-Rheingold	Meta-discussion about rulees is toxic if it goes on at any length.
16:29:55	A-Sondheim	Unless it goes on back-channel -
16:30:03	JohnSuler	people do seem to like having an authority around
16:30:28	Howard-Rheingold	There is always back-channel. That's a byproduct of community emerging -- people communicate with each other!
16:30:34	Robin-Hamman	That is a difficult one Alan - when an argument goes on back-channel
16:30:34	JohnSuler	yes, some groups get caught up in the rulees
16:30:39	A-Sondheim	as long as it's a mostly absent authority - I remember when the Spoons philosophy group was formed out of another group in which people felt the moderator was dominating too much
16:30:42	Howard-Rheingold	I don't think it's love of authority but weariness of bullshit.
16:30:54	A-Sondheim	Robin, I was thinking among the co-moderators; I've been very lucky that way
16:31:22	JohnSuler	social psychology suggests that all groups go thru the same stages... norming, conforming, storming, performing... do you find that to be true of online groups?
16:31:59	Howard-Rheingold	Yes, but of course online groups are fluid -- people are always leaving and joining.
16:32:09	A-Sondheim	yes, but after the performing ... and what happens when the group begins to become more social, less concerned with the topic - what happens with the newcomers under these circumstances?
16:32:36	A-Sondheim	the dynamics get twisted, discussions can circle, newbies can get angry that the topics aren't being met, etc..
16:32:42	Howard-Rheingold	If the oldtimers don't constantly work at being welcoming, online groups become more and more off-putting to newcomers.
16:32:58	JohnSuler	perhaps the fluidity issue accounts for the other necessities... rulees, a leader, boundaries wherever possible
16:33:04	A-Sondheim	there's always that sense of shared group history and its binding...
16:33:41	Robin-Hamman	I agree with what Howard says about online communities become more closed if newcomers aren't properly welcomed. On the other hand, there is nothing more lonely than coming into an online discussion where you are the only one there!
16:33:47	A-Sondheim	there's that other question I asked earlier before we started - what about thinking of the demographics first, communities that move from group to group ?
16:34:03	Howard-Rheingold	Peter and Trudy Johnson-Lenz wrote a very nice piece years ago about "boundaries and containers" in online groups.
16:34:10	A-Sondheim	that's becoming more prevalent - people meeting up, for example, here - people who know each other from elsewhere - it's becoming more client than server oriented...
16:34:57	JohnSuler	we're tossing around some very interesting ideas here...what are the signs that your community is SUCCEEDING?
16:35:04	A-Sondheim	so if one group fails for some people, they might move on together to other more amenable sites - instead of the site being top-down ...
16:35:19	Howard-Rheingold	Communities that survive meet the first criterion of success.
16:35:35	Howard-Rheingold	Communities that don't spend much time thrashing about rulees also meet a criterion.
16:35:39	A-Sondheim	John - what I call list "aura" - increased back-channel, all sorts of other webpages, discussions, fleshmeets, a sense of camaraderie
16:35:48	Robin-Hamman	A lot of people are finding new connections with their offline communities through online community. I think that this is really interesting, and when online community has positive affects upon the offline lives of users - that's a real success. :-)
16:35:52	JohnSuler	lol, howard... groups become so fluid that they flow away
16:35:56	Howard-Rheingold	Communities where people find that their participation is useful to their personal or professional lives are successful.
16:36:16	JohnSuler	yes, Alan, "integration" of channels, is how I like to think of it
16:36:28	A-Sondheim	Even a certain number of participants active a day -
16:36:57	Howard-Rheingold	I like communities that are too active for one person to cover everything, but that's maybe my personal predilection.
16:36:59	JohnSuler	I mentioned to Howard once how a sign of success is all those things that happen between the stated agenda of the group... friendships, romances
16:37:25	A-Sondheim	divorces, hatreds, as well! - I'm amazed at the background activities...
16:37:38	Howard-Rheingold	Friendships, romances, business partnerships, social get-togethers, mutual aid when reality strikes...
16:37:53	JohnSuler	yep, Alan... all are signs of LIFE
16:38:05	Robin-Hamman	:-)
16:38:18	A-Sondheim	And as Robin said, when offline and online interpenetrate - that seems important ...
16:38:27	Howard-Rheingold	Most important, I think, is that the members of the community take it on themselves to do things that are useful to the common good. Without being assigned to it by the founders.
16:38:47	JohnSuler	sounds like you like a metropolis model, Howard... perhaps others like small villages and hamlets
16:39:07	A-Sondheim	Howard, wouldn't that apply more to larger communities with numerous subgroups?
16:39:09	JohnSuler	commitment to each other, and to the group
16:39:10	Robin-Hamman	But within a corporate structure, that is an online community being run with commercial interests in mind, success is often measured in a very different way: page views, purchases, time spent online. I find that a bit scary.
16:39:23	Howard-Rheingold	I spent the first several years online in BBSs, so I like the small town, but I also find they don't meet all my needs.
16:39:34	A-Sondheim	And member cultivation - read Net.Gain for example - the _lure_
16:39:46	Howard-Rheingold	Besides, any large online community is not really a metropolis, but an ecology of smaller, partially overlapping communities.
16:40:02	JohnSuler	good point, Robin.... here's a tricky issue... can a community be a BUSINESS!?
16:40:11	A-Sondheim	That's really interesting - thinking of the ecologies of online communities in general...
16:40:29	A-Sondheim	John, communities _are_ business - email lists are even bought and sold...
16:40:39	A-Sondheim	Almost all corporate sites have them, as well as corporate chats -
16:40:55	JohnSuler	lately, I've been specializing more in small, closed groups...
16:40:55	Howard-Rheingold	Businesses can thrive within online communities, but only special and usually well funded instances of communities AS businesses succeed.
16:40:57	A-Sondheim	they're building what they think of as consumer/user/participant loyalty
16:41:14	Howard-Rheingold	Online communication, like Intranets, is becoming a tool OF businesses.
16:41:29	Howard-Rheingold	PlanetRx, Petopia, for example.
16:41:46	A-Sondheim	in some sense it's a Foucauldian discursive formation, business itself, not just a tool -
16:41:48	Robin-Hamman	I think Community always has been a business - I go to the shop half a mile away because I prefer the man who runs it and the clientele I meet there to those in the shop 200 meters from my home. I guess online community can be used to build loyalty
16:42:39	Howard-Rheingold	Say more about that, Alan. I'm not clear about what you mean, not having read Foucault.
16:42:45	A-Sondheim	a lot of email lists aren't business, run gratis, no advertising, members living in the ozone so to speak ...
16:43:10	Robin-Hamman	I'm curious as well Alan.
16:43:12	A-Sondheim	that online community is not only a way of doing business, but a way of inhabiting it, a sphere of discourses of all sorts that intersect, produce revenue
16:43:45	A-Sondheim	it's becoming a way of life, not just defined by "online community" but a way of thinking of and through business, "thinking business"
16:43:50	Howard-Rheingold	I just don't see very many enterprises actually making money out of virtual community, although VC can be good marketing. Those aren't the same.
16:44:09	JohnSuler	is revenue the goal, the purpose of the community?
16:44:17	A-Sondheim	Howard, I agree - but enterprises like to keep potential consumers on their site...
16:44:30	Howard-Rheingold	Revenue is never the goal of a community. It is a goal of a business.
16:44:30	A-Sondheim	Not of a lot of them of course, but certainly of the corporate-oriented ones
16:44:51	Howard-Rheingold	Alan, that's why I think it can be a marketing tool. But that's a cost of doing business, not a revenue stream!
16:45:02	A-Sondheim	Unless the community is defined top-down as having a goal - from the moderators running the structure
16:45:16	JohnSuler	If a business controls a community, then is the goal of the community "revenue"?
16:45:53	A-Sondheim	This is semantics, I think - yes, from the viewpoint of control, no, from the participants, who may in fact use the site as a way of criticizing the corporation
16:46:07	Howard-Rheingold	The goal of any community is to produce something together than individuals can't produce alone. That can be exploited for business reasons. But I don't see how business, without common goods, can be a reason.
16:46:26	JohnSuler	I have a feeling we could get very deep into this discussion of business, but being a lousy business myself, I'm going to try to steer us in a different course for the moment...
16:46:34	Robin-Hamman	The role of business is always revenue, and this is why I've always supported the idea of publicly funded webspace and, dare I say it, government regulation of the net.
16:46:35	A-Sondheim	If you're on a Subaru chat site, the common goods is the Subaru ...
16:46:51	JohnSuler	As creators of online communities, how does your role in your community change over time?
16:47:07	Howard-Rheingold	Government regulation? AIIIIEEEE! Public funding of the online public sphere? Yay!
16:47:15	A-Sondheim	Withdrawal to some extent! - and taking care of changing servers, etc.. when necessary -
16:47:33	Howard-Rheingold	The healthier the community, the less the founder should do.
16:48:08	A-Sondheim	Also perhaps reminding people at times that the topic's been abandoned (if that seems to be an issue) -
16:48:28	A-Sondheim	more like cultivation, nudging, at that point - sometimes nothing at all
16:48:31	JohnSuler	does the creator become a kind of mythic figure... especially if he/she is less visible?
16:48:53	Howard-Rheingold	It's impossible to avoid, but it's possible to reject too much projection.
16:48:57	Robin-Hamman	In my current position as a communities producer for a media company, I find that I spend more and more of my time battling with technical issues. The more correct we get the social side of things, the more stress is put on the tech.
16:49:08	A-Sondheim	a figure at times who is the locus or target of the group - but I actually found that working with co-moderators reduced this almost entirely -
16:49:35	Howard-Rheingold	Yes, spreading around the responsibility reduces the focus on the founder, and empowers the community. IMO.
16:49:45	Robin-Hamman	Although most of your list emails still carry your reply address Alan :-)
16:50:08	A-Sondheim	they should also carry those of the co-moderators in the info sheets - not sure what you mean?
16:51:24	JohnSuler	there's one more question I wanted to ask before we get to questions from the audience...
16:52:01	JohnSuler	What have been your most rewarding experiences as developers of online communities?
16:52:36	Robin-Hamman	Wow, that's a tough one!
16:52:45	A-Sondheim	participating in them, observing social interactions that tend to "leak" in and out of offline or other online life - knowing that communities online have sustainability for years and years
16:52:51	Howard-Rheingold	It's hard to know where to start. Most of my friends, most of my business, comes from online communities that I've put a lot of myself into, whether or not I founded them.
16:53:52	Robin-Hamman	I've really enjoyed the past 6 months...I'm continuing to research online communities as a social scientist while I'm getting paid to run live chats, host message boards, and come up with interactive ideas.
16:54:04	JohnSuler	Has your life in online communities changed you as a person?
16:54:29	A-Sondheim	at the trAce online writing community, I've been able to design collaborative projects that have absolutely amazed me - related to the community itself
16:54:42	Robin-Hamman	In the time I've been online I've met an enormous array of people. Some of them I've met offline, some of them I never will.
16:54:51	Howard-Rheingold	Again, I don't know where to start. Having all the criticism thrown at me for the book I wrote certainly made me into the kind of scholar I never set out to be!
16:55:05	A-Sondheim	too little air sometimes, too little landscape ... but a way of thinking and _acting_ globally that makes sense -
16:55:25	Howard-Rheingold	I do have to say that I really enjoy the fact that there is practically nowhere in the world where I can't get two or three people together for dinner when I visit -- people I have known for years online.
16:55:44	Robin-Hamman	Online communities have definitely changed my life - new connections, friendships, romances, and jobs have all come my way via my net communities.
16:55:48	A-Sondheim	it's also great for places to stay re: cross-country travel!
16:56:30	JohnSuler	OK. LET'S OPEN UP THE MEETING TO QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE. INDICATE THAT YOU WANT TO SPEAK BY TYPING THE MESSAGE "HAND." WE'LL TAKE THE QUESTIONS/COMMENTS IN ORDER.
16:56:36	Metta	I do have one question....
16:56:40	Cleo	HAND
16:56:43	Joe-Walther	HAND
16:56:43	Mark	Hand
16:56:46	JohnSuler	(I'm running this meeting single-handedly, so please be patient with me! :-)
16:56:50	Jeff-Rutenbeck	HAND
16:56:53	Kate	HAND
16:56:54	Corey-Dumas	HAND
16:56:54	Palimpsest	HAND
16:56:55	JohnSuler	cleo...go ahead
16:57:02	Cleo	after the community is created and going.. should the "owners" participate as members? & List/Community rulees.. too many? what is just right?
16:57:08	Azy	HAND
16:57:08	andee	can we do hands?
16:57:10	storm	hand
16:57:21	andee	hand
16:57:31	Howard-Rheingold	If the founders or owners don't participate, there will be more room for problems than if they do.
16:57:35	robinp	hand
16:57:41	Cassandra	HAND
16:57:46	Howard-Rheingold	In regard to rulees, keep it simple. Respect others. That says it all.
16:57:49	A-Sondheim	I think we do participate as members - but the rulees often come up in relation to particular circumstances that weren't foreseen - I think there should be very few basic rulees, such as respect -
16:58:02	Robin-Hamman	Cleo, I think Howard is a great example of how a person who has set up an online community can and should participate.
16:58:09	A-Sondheim	but there should be ways to make rulees as cases come up
16:58:14	Cleo	I was told by one listowner he would lose his "authority" if he participated as a member
16:58:26	A-Sondheim	why would he want that authority in the first place?
16:58:52	Martha	HAND
16:58:58	Cleo	;-) one of THOSE listowners
16:59:02	Howard-Rheingold	Authority is incredibly important to some people.
16:59:05	JohnSuler	Joe... go ahead
16:59:05	Robin-Hamman	Cleo, you find that good owner/participants are always fair and honest. They shouldn't have set it up if they didn't plan to have both those characteristics from the start.
16:59:11	Joe-Walther	Armstrong & Hagel conceptualize 4 types of VC's: Communities of Interest, of Support, Exchange, or Fantasy (and they recommend merging the 4 when possible). What would you add to the taxonomy as a distinct type?
16:59:23	A-Sondheim	Lists run that way - that aren't moderated in terms of posts - often tend to fall apart ...
16:59:29	Howard-Rheingold	Knowledge communities.
16:59:37	Howard-Rheingold	Fun communities.
16:59:38	A-Sondheim	Communities which are temporary, as members move from site to site -
16:59:57	Dan	Hand
16:59:59	A-Sondheim	in other words, communities that, per se, deconstruct themselves, are fluid, nomadic
17:00:21	Bryan-Alexander	HAND
17:00:35	Robin-Hamman	Perhaps communities of communication - groups using online community tools to communicate in an everyday manner.
17:01:02	JohnSuler	oh geesh, I'm already losing track of the hands..
17:01:03	Beth	Hand
17:01:07	JohnSmith	HAND
17:01:39	andee	we need a hand counter, in order? all those who raised hands say HAND
17:01:44	Robin-Hamman	It's not a very good definition, but some people today are using online community tools in the same way many of us use our telephones.
17:01:45	JohnSuler	you know, I never did like the hand-raising method... I HEREBY DECLARE AN OPEN DISCUSSION (hold onto your hats!)
17:01:51	robinp	hand!
17:01:57	Cassandra	Hand
17:01:58	Corey-Dumas	hand
17:01:59	Jeff-Rutenbeck	What are the advantages and disadvantages of using ready-made online community services such as littleuniverse.com, tribal.com, wildabout.com??
17:02:00	A-Sondheim	Bryan, wondering about your question?
17:02:15	andee	okay, how do we tell commitment? what are some indicators of that?
17:02:16	Mark	What are the major differences/advantages/disadvantages between "open" and more "closed" communities, e.g., ones based on professional training for example (M.D.'s, college deans, etc.). Communities of practice.
17:02:21	Howard-Rheingold	Most ready-made services software sucks. Except listservs..
17:02:22	JohnSmith	Will there be a transcript of this conversation posted somewhere?
17:02:31	Palimpsest	oh boy..
17:02:39	Howard-Rheingold	Communities of practice have a strong affinity.
17:02:40	A-Sondheim	Jeff - wouldn't that depend on the applications that are present, the degree of advertising, the stability of the server, etc..?
17:02:47	Kate	How so, Howard?
17:02:52	Howard-Rheingold	Open communities can lose focus.
17:02:53	Robin-Hamman	Jeff, branding might be an issue if you are running the site for anyone other than yourself. Ownership is also a tricky one.
17:02:59	Cleo	.. and MOO
17:03:02	Corey-Dumas	Mark's question was my own
17:03:04	JohnSuler	A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE AVAILABLE
17:03:06	A-Sondheim	Communities of practice often become more open through time ...
17:03:10	andee	transcripts available online a week or two after, huh, John?
17:03:18	A-Sondheim	The focus becomes more and more the group itself -
17:03:25	Howard-Rheingold	Kate, the message board software I've seen available at places like Yahoo and Excite have an inferior UI. Listervs. like onelist are fine.
17:03:38	storm	what are some of the differences between asynchronous and synchronous online communities in terms of how strong people bond or not ??
17:04:00	Kate	Howard - Thank you, that's what I thought you meant. Wanted to see if I read you right.
17:04:03	andee	good question, Storm!
17:04:04	christiana	Trudy-Lenz "Rhythm Boundaries and Containers"
17:04:05	JohnSuler	the transcript should be available in a few days
17:04:17	A-Sondheim	async seems stronger to me - the real division is between those that require rites of passage - signing up to an email list - vs.. those that anyone can come in and out of - newsgroups - and look at the difference there -
17:04:19	Jeff-Rutenbeck	I'm teaching a class on building online communities - please feel free to visit the syllabus and offer comments
17:04:21	Cleo	storm, could you explain what you mean by "asynchronous and synchronous online communities?
17:04:22	Dan	Can you vision the future of neighborhood online/offline communities?
17:04:24	Bryan-Alexander	Thank you, Alan. I'm interested in what pre-internet, pre-Web cultural models we rely on to construct on-line communities. For example, the American small-town utopia.
17:04:31	Howard-Rheingold	I'm not sure that question is specific enough, Storm. A chat group of Alzheimer's caregivers might bond more strongly than a message board for basketball fans.
17:04:44	Howard-Rheingold	I think the group affinity is more important than the medium, IOW.
17:04:52	andee	thanks Christiana
17:04:58	Joe-Walther	Howard mentioned work by the Johnson-Lenz's earlier. Apart from your own work, what readings do you (each) recommend?
17:04:59	A-Sondheim	Dan, there may be little difference, except that some members won't be local - as bandwidth increases, surely the contacts will seem less and less virtual ..
17:05:18	andee	mixtures of both types of communication in some communities?
17:05:23	A-Sondheim	Someone pointed out in a famous paper, 18th-century coffee shops -
17:05:25	robinp	Can I ask does the panel think there is any requirement for a community to be a democracy? With all the talk of police, rulees and pre-set social structure, I was just wondering.
17:05:31	Howard-Rheingold	Barry Wellman's work on social networks is very worthwhile.
17:05:50	christiana	link too long.. try this
17:06:03	Howard-Rheingold	Communities can be democracies, autocracies, anarchies. I've participated in all three kinds.
17:06:03	Robin-Hamman	Cost is an issue here in the UK, at least in the short-term. It's expensive to use message boards and chat rooms because it is time intensive. Email works so much better for me personally, at least at the moment.
17:06:13	A-Sondheim	most communities are pretty democratic, but you'll find people coming online at times deliberately to disrupt things, derail discussion, or break the server (spam etc..) - it's what to do in these cases -
17:06:22	Cleo	can't be a pure democracy and work. Someone is responsible to the server, the host.. that person has to be, we hope a benevolent "god" of sorts
17:06:23	Palimpsest	Howard: in VC you wrote "that whenever CMC technology becomes available to people anywhere, they inevitably build virtual communities with it, just as microorganisms inevitably create colonies." Neal Stephenson, in an article about the effects of CMC in China ("In the Kingdom of Mao Bell", Wired, 1994) really didn't find any sign of community forming among the hackers there. Any comment?
17:06:40	Lynndal-Daniels	Similar to Storm's question - I find that sequential versus threaded communities (boards) develop stronger communities - what are your thoughts?
17:06:44	JohnSuler	anarchy.. that's sorta like what's happening right now... I rather like it myself :-)
17:06:45	Beth	In communities of interest, e.g., business related, can personal or unrelated topics be avoided? If so, would that prevent "bonding" and loyalty?
17:06:48	Cleo	A-Sondheim.. I see more problems with autocratic "owners" than disruptive members
17:07:13	Howard-Rheingold	There is a BBS community of people discussing philosophy in PRC with 4000 members. It's hard to characterize China in a week or month or year of research, wouldn't you say?
17:07:14	A-Sondheim	Beth, yes - although you can have intensive formal discussions, such as on Nettime -
17:07:18	andee	hackers are loners?
17:07:23	A-Sondheim	Cleo, it depends - they're both out there -
17:07:29	Azy	Would you encourage or discourage backchannel communication between members and online community manager?
17:07:44	A-Sondheim	Taylor's book Hackers points out that in fact they're intensely community oriented
17:07:49	A-Sondheim	Encourage!
17:08:09	Howard-Rheingold	I try to encourage people to settle their own differences, instead of relying on me.
17:08:10	andee	Alan, how do you handle the disrupters, the energy creatures?
17:08:27	A-Sondheim	I just like hearing from people ...
17:08:33	Robin-Hamman	Azy, I would encourage it. I've worked professionally with online communities that have no backchannel and it discourages relationship building.
17:08:59	Beth	what is backchannel?
17:09:10	Dr--Mike	Only a little was said about the group's own efforts at enforcing norms. Maybe I've just been lucky, and not run into more than the occasional huf-n-puf grandstanding, no real pathology or wars...With all the discussion about anarchy and negativism driving away members... are there not some groups where members themselves exert positive norms (as in some f2f groups, especially smaller ones, and more cohesive ones?)
17:09:20	A-Sondheim	private community, not on the list (backchannel)
17:09:38	JohnSuler	i think backchannel email is the backbone of a community
17:09:56	A-Sondheim	definitely - Cybermind is one of them - people who are moderate, caring, gracious, welcoming, in their responses ...
17:09:59	andee	backchannel includes email and icq Beth away from forum or list or group.
17:10:01	Robin-Hamman	Beth, backchannel is private messages, email, or phone calls between community members.
17:10:14	Howard-Rheingold	Dr Mike --- certainly. Such groups abound!
17:10:21	JohnSuler	I think following the lead of the community helps define what is deviant behavior and what isn't
17:10:36	A-Sondheim	sometimes, if the community is new, it doesn't know -
17:10:54	Azy	Would you encourage f2f meeting of a VCommunity, and if so - when?
17:11:20	Jeff-Rutenbeck	How important are regularly scheduled online "events" such as this one we're in now??
17:11:23	Mark	Howard, what 's the best way to invite/recruit moderators to a new community?
17:11:33	Howard-Rheingold	I always encourage people to meet ftf
17:11:47	Howard-Rheingold	Online events can be very useful at the beginning.
17:11:56	Howard-Rheingold	The best moderators emerge from the community.
17:11:56	A-Sondheim	Azy, that depends on the community - f2f can be even dangerous at times of course, but group meets provide wonderful cohesiveness - on Echo, they tried that as a way of reducing tensions in fact -
17:12:15	Bernie-Slepkov	Well, I want to say my goodbyes and thank you all for your valuable contributions towards my future knowledge
17:12:16	andee	yeah even at your house, huh, Howard?!:)
17:12:40	andee	Bye Bernie!
17:12:47	A-Sondheim	Bye -
17:12:50	Bernie-Slepkov	I've cut and pasted a record, which I will edit out the whispers, so if anyone
17:12:58	Howard-Rheingold	I always bring my friends home. My parents were accustomed to me showing up with a dozen people for overnight stays or longer.
17:13:03	Robin-Hamman	Jeff, I work for a media corporation that has numerous discussions like this online each week, but not at a regular time. We're looking into the idea of regular scheduling now because we have noticed that a lot of the same users come back at the same time
17:13:06	kto	waves bye to Bernie
17:13:08	A-Sondheim	That sounds good Bernie - I think there is also a log ...
17:13:12	JohnSuler	THIS MEETING IS OFFICIALLY OVER. HOWEVER, EVERYONE IS WELCOME TO HANG OUT FOR A WHILE AND CHAT WITH COLLEAGUES. MY THANKS TO HOWARD, ROBIN AND ALAN FOR COMING {{{{applause}}}
17:13:15	Martha	Robin, are there any ways in which the communities you form in your professional role for the BBC are different from those without any commercial sponsorship?
17:13:22	A-Sondheim	Robin, the same happens at trAce ...
17:13:25	Bernie-Slepkov	would like a clean copy - bernies@mergetel.com
17:13:29	Bryan-Alexander	Applause!
17:13:33	Howard-Rheingold	My pleasure, John.
17:13:39	A-Sondheim	Bernie, thanks -
17:13:58	gee	I wonder then, are you saying that ftf provides a more 'psychologically' important connection; should the goal of virtual groups be to spawn ftf interaction?
17:14:06	Azy	THANKS!!!
17:14:08	MarkVardell	Interesting...points all....the mention of open versus focused group...I wonder about that...are open groups different than 10 years ago?
17:14:08	Jeff-Rutenbeck	I learned a lot - thanks for putting on this event!!
17:14:11	ivan	Hi, I missed your meeting, is there a log?
17:14:16	Billie	thanks John and all the panelists
17:14:25	Robin-Hamman	Martha, we are allowed to do a lot of chats that a commercial organization couldn't do - quit smoking chats, educational chats, politicians you've never heard of... that's exciting.
17:14:37	Billie	hello Ivan
17:14:38	Cleo	good question gee, is FTF more psychologically important and if it is.. why/how?
17:14:41	Robin-Hamman	Thanks John, Howard, and Alan.
17:14:56	Beth	I'd really like to hear more about creative ways to attract new recruits to a community - especially creative ways in addition to hosting special chat events...Any ideas?
17:14:56	JohnSuler	A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE AVAILABLE within a few days
17:15:03	jacqui	Thank you for all the information, I've found it interesting to say the least
17:15:09	Dora-Weaver	Goody everyone. My PC kept locking up. Talk to you next time.
17:15:11	kto	how do we get a copy of the session?
17:15:26	Robin-Hamman	Thanks everyone for coming along - it's been fun being a guest rather than a host for once!
17:15:28	MarkVardell	I had asked John this too...but I wonder what the role of a therapists is in an open group or how professionals struggle with their roles?
17:15:37	Bryan-Alexander	Are we breaking up into aura? Backchannel, separate conversations in this space, over to email, conferences, etc.?
17:15:37	Azy	Thank you John and Good night from Israel and the Pope
17:15:41	Howard-Rheingold	Gotta go. It's been phun!
17:15:43	Dr--Mike	Out of the chaos, (and people drifting away...) I just want to thank the panelists, who we're privileged to have gotten, and John S for putting it together and bringing it off!
17:16:02	Jeff-Rutenbeck	Ron: It's http://www.du.edu/~jrutenbe/4503 - I'd really appreciate any suggestions you might have. Thanks.
17:16:06	A-Sondheim	I want to thank everyone as well; the screen froze here for a minute or so ...
17:16:14	Billie	night Azy
17:16:18	andee	bye howard!
17:16:20	Dan	Thanks
17:16:22	Robin-Hamman	I published a web page a few years ago that might be interesting for some of you. It's an online community toolkit of sorts
17:16:26	MarkVardell	lol dang I should click to the refresh button to notice ppls leaving
17:16:27	Azy	nightnight
17:16:28	kto	to John thanks
17:16:32	Gil-Levin	Ditto to Dr. Mike
17:16:43	Robin-Hamman	Bye Howard :-)
17:16:46	Myron	This discussion was valuable and enjoyable. Thanks to all.
17:16:48	JohnSuler	Bye Howard! thanks again!!
17:16:56	darth	Thanks to the panelists for their time, and thanks to everyone for the great questions. Bye.
17:16:57	Dr--Mike	Nite Azy... Regards to the Holy Land and Holy Sea...
17:17:01	drbella	Thank you all!
17:17:04	A-Sondheim	Beth - to attract new people - I'd advertise on net-happenings, new-list, trAce, the lists you're on, tell friends, spread the word - I'm not sure how else to do it ...
17:17:14	MarkVardell	good topic and nice thoughts to ponder...bye all
17:17:15	A-Sondheim	Bye Howard -
17:17:15	JohnSuler	I think we are going to see a wide variety of interesting roles for the mental health worker in the years ahead in the online world
17:17:24	Robin-Hamman	I have to be going myself.
17:17:26	ivan	Please, before you all leave, is there a log of your meeting?
17:17:41	Azy	bye mike... right to bed
17:17:42	JohnSuler	bye Mark!
17:17:53	JohnSuler	A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE AVAILABLE within a few days
17:17:57	Jeff-Rutenbeck	Bye - Thanks!!
17:18:09	Billie	Ivan there will be a log available
17:18:19	ivan	Thanks John
17:18:48	Billie	Night Azy
17:18:50	A-Sondheim	Are there any other questions, anything we should be discussing?
17:18:59	SteveBiggs	John, thanks again for another interesting event
17:19:01	Robin-Hamman	Anyone who wants to contact me may do so through my website. Thanks for having me John. Bye everyone.
17:19:08	A-Sondheim	Bye Robin
17:19:22	Bryan-Alexander	I wanted to follow up on my cultural antecedents one....?
17:19:29	Cassandra	Well, I wanted to throw in a couple of comments about communities as businesses - since that's my main interest at the moment
17:19:30	A-Sondheim	Yes? -
17:19:33	Billie	Thanks Robin
17:19:38	Cleo	I wish there was more time.. so much to discuss, ;-)
17:19:40	storm	thanks all - type to you later
17:19:40	kto	are there any recommended resources to building community on line?
17:19:44	A-Sondheim	There was that article (I have it somewhere) on coffee-shops -
17:19:56	A-Sondheim	But one might also look to things like the Spectator or the Tatler -
17:20:07	Billie	later storm
17:20:20	Bernie-Slepkov	bye all
17:20:21	A-Sondheim	kto - I'd honestly look at the communities themselves, look through archives, etc.. - practical experience -
17:20:24	andee	Great panel and discussion, so little time.
17:20:27	Dr--Mike	OK, I'm off too... Enjoyed the presentation, comments, and seeing familiar "faces" and "hands"! Happy Weekend. Bye...
17:20:29	A-Sondheim	Bye Bernie
17:20:32	Bryan-Alexander	Coffee shops are definitely there - from the 18th century Brits to Habermas.
17:20:33	Cleo	http://skally.net/listowner/ and http://skally.net/eduvr/
17:21:01	Bryan-Alexander	The small-town experience seems to reappear in many VC discussions - opponents use it as a foil, advocates as one goal.
17:21:10	Billie	later DrMike
17:21:10	A-Sondheim	I also think community memory things - for example genealogies, genealogical knowledge among some traditional peoples -
17:21:25	Martha	Alan, can you tell us how to connect with the lists mentioned in your bio?
17:21:32	A-Sondheim	but real-life small towns, honest, are also home to bigotry, etc.. -
17:21:34	Bryan-Alexander	I'm wondering about listener cultures, from telegraph to radio to tv - how do they appear, change in VC?
17:22:15	Bryan-Alexander	community memory - that's interesting. Mixed media, right? (Memory, oral, statuary, print documents, slang, etc.)
17:22:36	A-Sondheim	Cybermind is at listserv@listserv.aol.com and fiction-of-philosophy is at majordomo@purdue.edu and Cyberculture is at listproc@cmhcsys.com
17:22:45	Bryan-Alexander	I agree about the realities of small towns.
17:23:01	kto	how do we build community of practice on line?
17:23:06	Martha	Thank you!
17:23:24	Bryan-Alexander	Cybermind's nifty, btw.
17:23:26	A-Sondheim	which is what lists or sites do - mix media, aura, backchannel, rumor, gossip, etc.. - it's a mixture, not as clear-cut as the applications would lead one to believe. I think of this perhaps in terms of defining "species" in biology, which works from a certain distance ,..
17:23:30	Cleo	"community of practice"????
17:24:31	Bryan-Alexander	lists/sites sound like assemblages, then, with varied components, different intensities and rhythms (pace Deleuze and Guattari)?
17:24:41	Cleo	then how do lists or sites differ from off line communities?
17:24:56	kto	a community on line where members participate in order to learn from each other
17:25:08	Bryan-Alexander	Cleo, could one say that all on-line communities are intentional?
17:25:22	kto	like what we are doing here and now
17:25:32	Cleo	thanks kto
17:26:05	Cleo	Bryan I see what you mean, but so can off line communities be.. i.e.: churches.. social clubs.. schools
17:26:13	A-Sondheim	Bryan, I do think that D/G provide models here - also Alphonso Lingis tends to help me out a lot -
17:26:42	Bryan-Alexander	Off-line communities can be, but aren't essentially intentional. Even some of your examples - school! not always intentional... <g>
17:26:57	Bryan-Alexander	Alan, how would you work Lingis in, here?
17:27:03	Cleo	LOL!
17:27:06	A-Sondheim	Bryan - also, I think "intentional" re: these communities needs to be deconstructed - certainly a community can be organized around a topic or node - but it can also be fragmentary, chaotic
17:27:26	gee	Cleo - DO offline communities and online communities differ, in anything but 'trivial' ways (e.g. - medium etc.)?
17:27:32	A-Sondheim	In terms of the flux of emotions, communities, libidinal flows - (Lingis) -
17:27:39	kto	isn't it within the community that true learning can take place?
17:28:02	Palimpsest	On line communities often center around interest, off line comm. around geography.
17:28:08	A-Sondheim	Online communities do have a DELETE or LEAVE attached to them - real life has a very different sort of alternity - in which negation, turning away from the other - carries very different consequences
17:28:18	andee	Wow, Cleo, you think they are quite similar, the online and offline?
17:28:19	Cleo	OK, then how would an intentional.. say the birding club of SmallTown OKlahoma differ online vs.. offline in meetings and back channel interactions outside of the obvious [no beer]
17:28:19	Chat Guy	Beer is good.
17:28:38	Bryan-Alexander	True, "intentional" is a hefty half of a binary...
17:28:44	andee	What kinds of different consequences, Alan?
17:28:49	Cleo	yes I do Andee, very. with some important differences though
17:28:57	JohnSuler	btw... "Chat Guy" is our resident bot.
17:29:04	A-Sondheim	Cleo lots of country-western songs and divorce in the meetings -
17:29:12	Bryan-Alexander	Deleting a connection to a RL community is sometimes dangerous!
17:29:15	Ron	Thanks for an interesting seminar you all
17:29:16	Palimpsest	lol
17:29:32	JohnSuler	now there's another fascinating topic... what role should bots play in a community?
17:29:36	Cassandra	Palimpsest - the first BBSs were geography based - but in the larger ones - people naturally broke down into interest subtopics - as well as socializing over the whole of the userbase
17:29:39	kto	f2f and virtual communities differ in that we are limited in the virtual by being able to describe the self rather than being the self
17:29:44	A-Sondheim	in real life, if you're turned down, say, for a date, it carries the possibility of shame with it, negation of the person in his or her entirety - online, it can simply lead to a movement elsewhere, a deflection
17:30:03	A-Sondheim	John, they should keep the channels open!
17:30:16	Cleo	believe me, in online life.. rejection carries the same thing :(
17:30:30	Bryan-Alexander	Cleo, I'd argue that many communities in RL are accidental, not purposed - groups of coworkers, groups of friends at school. They seem incidental to the situation' purpose.
17:30:34	Palimpsest	Cassan: yes, they were geo. based, but the barriers of entry very much imposed an interest based spin on the bbses..
17:30:37	JohnSuler	yep, Cleo
17:30:47	Billie	and a well designed bot can serve as the 'police'
17:30:48	Cassandra	once communities went global - topics of interest or common bonds by far make the best communities
17:30:53	Cleo	I don't see how you can find a difference in rejections online vs. offline.. in both.. can move on to other things.. and in both painful?
17:30:54	A-Sondheim	kto, yes! We constitute ourselves online - deliberately - and can change these characteristics, even if we feel ill at ease with the changes - offline, we're presented as inert, obdurate, the changes are superficial
17:31:17	andee	wouldn't the feelings be somewhat the same tho, Alan, or less so online, you think?
17:31:21	A-Sondheim	Cleo, try moving on in that small town where someone rejected you, and where you lived all your life -
17:31:28	gee	But once relationships develop in virtual communities, doesn't the difficulty of leaving that community become similar to that of ftf commentates?
17:31:34	Palimpsest	Cassandra: yes, but interest based communities can become very insular..
17:31:50	Bryan-Alexander	Rejection: moving away from my block is an immense effort, while leaving a list isn't. Leaving a RL person with quick access to violence is different, I think, even from much-hyped cyberstalking.
17:32:23	andee	good point, gee
17:33:10	Cassandra	insular is not necessarily bad - it serves the purpose of focus
17:33:11	kto	so how can we build better community to foster learning and sharing of knowledge?
17:34:40	Palimpsest	We done busted the server. :)
17:34:49	Bryan-Alexander	kto, Alan, do you think, then, that this rapid reconstitution of self on-line is one source of internet culture's famed fluidity and instability?
17:34:54	gee	Does this make online community less 'real' or 'relevant', then, than ftf community?
17:35:02	JohnSuler	some technical difficulties never hurt anyone!
17:35:20	Palimpsest	Insular can be very bad if it means that you're only interacting with another version of yourself.
17:35:34	A-Sondheim	This has been a mess - the server went down suddenly at this end as far as I could tell -
17:35:34	Billie	back also...a little jam in the system
17:35:44	JohnSuler	I think that rapid constitution is an illusion
17:35:58	A-Sondheim	And Bryan, yes - I had also written you a longer reply, but it got cut out -
17:36:15	kto	to Gee just different
17:36:18	Bryan-Alexander	John, can you say more?
17:36:18	A-Sondheim	John, I can go on INSTANTLY as Jennifer on IRC - and see what happens ...
17:36:26	JohnSuler	In a blink of the server's eye... we are ALL deconstructed!... Ah, it's just life in cyberspace!
17:36:40	A-Sondheim	But also Bryan, constitution in terms of older communities or invested ones, tends to hold on -
17:36:47	JohnSuler	But it's still you, Alan.
17:36:58	Bryan-Alexander	Heck, John, that line about the server seems to make my case. :)
17:37:04	gee	Thanks kto - I can live with different :-)
17:37:30	Bryan-Alexander	Not sure I follow, Alan - constitution in older terms holds on how?
17:37:31	A-Sondheim	John, but to whom? To me? Not if I merge with the character ... it's a question which Lacan asks anyway, who is the subject, what is subjectivity, self is selves, illusory, etc.. etc..
17:38:07	A-Sondheim	I mean, say, on Cybermind, people tend to hold onto their identities, they invest in them with the group over time, even if they're created for the fun of it in the first place
17:38:15	Cassandra	bah - that is the bane of the internet - disconnects
17:38:18	Bryan-Alexander	IDLE speaks!
17:38:21	JohnSuler	The character is an expression of you.
17:38:41	JohnSuler	...but of course, there are many other facets to you.
17:38:48	A-Sondheim	I think it could also become, that you are an expression of the character - it certainly feels like that at times ...
17:38:58	Bryan-Alexander	Sure, John. But the term expands: expressions are always limited, mobile, partial, etc..
17:39:08	Billie	LOL idle also disconnects
17:39:23	A-Sondheim	I'm just thinking, that we need more fluidity with these identities, notions of community, sites, etc.. - that mobile relationships seem to characterize the net more and more ...
17:39:34	A-Sondheim	IDLE is a performative ..
17:39:36	Bryan-Alexander	Speaking of disconnects: my son is awake, and demanding care.
17:39:57	JohnSuler	maybe too mobile?
17:40:17	JohnSuler	first things first, Bryan!
17:40:22	kto	loves notions of community
17:40:31	Cassandra	John - you hit the heart of a common thread of debate - what is role-playing online - is it your personality coming thru into the environment - or is it constructing a false persona to live there
17:40:33	A-Sondheim	Perhaps - I wonder what's happening with the thousands of new online communities that seem to emerge monthly - how they relate to each other, how they function ...
17:40:55	Palimpsest	Okay all. Thanks for a very stimulating hour and a half (hour and a half?! We went on that long? Jeeeez. :) ) I've gots to study me maths now.
17:40:58	JohnSuler	there are no false personas
17:41:05	Bryan-Alexander	That's right, John. And Owain (one and one-half years) is scaling a bookshelf...
17:41:11	JohnSuler	personas hide and reveal simultaneously
17:41:26	Cassandra	well, that has always been my position - but a 'hardcore' RPer will debate that one with you to the death
17:41:32	ldicarlo	How about a little of both -- role playing and true self verging together?
17:41:42	JohnSuler	oh... never mind me folks... I like to play the devil's advocate... it's one of my online personas :-)
17:41:49	A-Sondheim	Only if there is something "deeper" to be hidden and revealed - I haven't thought all of this out completely, but I do wonder about the idea of plateaus here -
17:41:57	Billie	what a visual Bryan
17:42:13	A-Sondheim	Idicarlo - I tend to agree with you here, or if not verging, at least interpenetrating (one of my favorite words)
17:42:22	kto	when we play we have a great opportunity to learn
17:42:41	ldicarlo	oooh -- I like that word -- very appropriate in cyberspace :)
17:42:49	A-Sondheim	maybe we learn the other is ourselves ...
17:43:06	A-Sondheim	(Sounds like Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us)
17:43:06	kto	that's it!
17:43:08	JohnSuler	Playing IS reality (according to Winnicott)
17:43:25	ldicarlo	I'm sorry I got here late, will there be a transcript of this? I don't want to ask any questions that were already discussed
17:43:37	kto	I know my self in many different forms and realities
17:43:53	JohnSuler	self/other... just another one of those illusions
17:44:00	Bryan-Alexander	Owain's back on the floor with one of his books now, but thunderstorm is hitting town. Might lose power, so I'll sign off shortly.
17:44:07	JohnSuler	A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE AVAILABLE within a few days
17:44:13	Bryan-Alexander	Heck, I hate to sound so Gothic all the time...
17:44:20	JohnSuler	bye Bryan!
17:44:22	gee	OK - have to go (breakfast time down under). Thanks folks.
17:44:22	ldicarlo	thanks John
17:44:23	Billie	yes Icicardo there will be a log
17:44:23	Cassandra	John - in your studies of SNERTs in online communities - do you find they often justify their actions as ok because 'this isn't real"?
17:44:47	JohnSuler	yes, Cassandra... or they declare the right to "free speech"
17:45:21	Cassandra	yes - the worlds I've been observing late extend free speech - to free action
17:45:24	ldicarlo	well, they are just acting out online as they would ftf, they want attention...
17:45:25	Bryan-Alexander	Lightning. Ah well. Thank you, all!
17:45:37	ldicarlo	many of them can be turned around and become assets to your community
17:45:39	A-Sondheim	Bye Bryan, I've got to go soon myself ..
17:45:44	Billie	thank you Bryan
17:46:10	JohnSuler	yes, Idicarlo... though it does take some work to do that
17:46:25	Cassandra	some Idicarlo - not all - especially when you have a high percentage of chronologically as well as emotionally immature folks
17:46:29	JohnSuler	..and as some online hosts and moderators say, "I'm not doing social work here!"
17:46:38	A-Sondheim	And sometimes it doesn't work; I've been occasionally surprised at the degree of nastiness one can encounter on the Net -
17:46:48	ldicarlo	LOL well if we weren't up to the challenge, we wouldn't be leaders of building community ;-)
17:47:18	JohnSuler	but it's just their persona, Alan!
17:47:27	Cassandra	well - I wonder about that John - especially when talking about a commercial enterprise - as the makers of a world/community - does that not also carry with it a certain social responsibility?
17:47:29	ldicarlo	I'm not saying all can be turned around, but I find at least 50 % can be
17:47:32	A-Sondheim	That's true - I've had to become very thick-skinned at times, and then at others, very think - you get letters from people for example thinking of suicide, etc.. -
17:47:46	A-Sondheim	very thin I meant, sorry
17:48:16	JohnSuler	about once a month, I get the nastiest email from strangers
17:48:20	Cassandra	the more emotionally mature your members are - the less intervention is needed - definitely - they have their own self-restraints
17:48:38	A-Sondheim	John, if it's once a month, maybe it's the same stranger ... :-)
17:48:43	JohnSuler	uh oh,Alan, a typed-text slip! :-)
17:49:02	kto	their purpose for being there in the first place is also a big consideration
17:49:17	JohnSuler	LOL! I wouldn't doubt it, Alan!
17:49:49	Cassandra	purposes can change tho kto - especially in a commercial situation where they are paying to be there - they somehow feel entitled to more outlandish behavior because they pay
17:49:59	Billie	hello HTS
17:50:15	A-Sondheim	Cassandra, but wouldn't they also be more responsible because they're paying?
17:50:24	Cassandra	then you get into the my 10$ is just as green as your 10$ a month battles
17:50:26	A-Sondheim	They'd want something out of it ...
17:50:36	HTS	Hello.
17:50:36	kto	to Casandra good point
17:50:38	JohnSuler	about snerts - there's a Zen saying "pulling the weed and burying it gives food to the garden"
17:50:40	ldicarlo	but ultimately anyone who stays for any amount of time is there for the need of companionship or information...
17:51:07	A-Sondheim	yes, I've noticed that - people - if they stay on - tend to settle down - it's not worthwhile doing anything else
17:51:34	Cassandra	well - the 4 classifications of VC mentioned earlier was interesting - because these brave new worlds incorporate all of them - including profit in the real world as a byproduct on Ebay
17:51:44	kto	again I ask about fostering community what do you do to ensure it happens?
17:51:56	Cassandra	they are commercial - you have to buy the program - and pay a monthly subscription
17:52:20	A-Sondheim	i think you have to ride the community, cultivate it the way you would friends - and perhaps work on bringing new people in, get the people already on involved in that
17:52:38	kto	if the community isn't establish first I think the venture can fail
17:52:45	JohnSuler	It's time for dinner here, folks. I must go. THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING!

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